Jump to content
Ultimate Subaru Message Board

93 Loyale SPFI Grief !!!!!!!!!!!


Recommended Posts

This is an ongoing problem and my original post has gotten buried............Right now the car starts and runs (not driveable)- it runs very Rich, Rough* and Hot! 3 of 4 Spark Plugs are Soot Black and Cylinders 2 & 4 exhibit some slightly noticeable change in RPM when the wires are pulled from the Cap- Cylinders 1 & 3 have a very noticable RPM drop! ( The wiring and Firing order has been checked and verified as correct.)

 

 

HISTORY

 

This problem started out with the car dying on the freeway (a week before Christmas) - and after a tow home, I found the Fuel Injector stopped putting out fuel after the engine started! (This is what I call the Original Problem) I dug around the engine compartment as well as in the passenger compartment-pulling dash panels trying to figure out the whole fuel injection/computer driven ignition/emission control nightmare by looking for the connector for the Code Reader- and in frustration put it all back together again! And things worked (the engine stayed running) - but very rough*!

 

 

Thinking a Tune-up would help (because one hadn't been done in a while) I performed a tuneup (Plugs, Wires, Cap,Rotor, Air Cleaner) . But no help! I didn't find this out for about 10 days because the car would no longer stay running after it started. (The Original problem had returned)! I should point out that while executing the Tune Up, I did my best to make sure that I didn't cause any more damage to the engine or pulled down wiring and panels inside the vehicle. When I had completed the parts change out for the tune-up - I was very surprised to find that my Original Problem had returned! So I continued digging and trying to understand how this car works. When I felt that I had reached a dead end, I reassembled everything and prepared to tow the car to the repair shop. In one last desperate attempt, I started the car again. And the darn thing stayed running! But it ran very rough and lacked power!

 

 

It was at this point that I drove the car down to the repair shop (not a dealer). When I talked to the mechanic several days later, he advised me that my catalytic converter system had gotten quit hot in my driving the car to him-(about 5 miles) because the engine was running very very rich!

 

The repair shop had it for 2 weeks, came up empty (but didn't empty my wallet praise the Lord!) - and now this deadish car is back in front of my house !

 

The car repair shop found the engine to be running very rich-they said the Fuel Injector was metering excess fuel into the Throttle Body. They (and I have verified this) removed the short black 3"hose at the back of the Throttle Body and found no vacuum coming out of the center of the Throttle Body going over to the Fuel Pressure Regulator! They connected up a Hand Vacuum Pump to the FP Regulator and applied 28 In Hg of vacuum and the engine ran fine! They said that they had to get to 28 for things to work correctly! I have verified that 28 InHg is necessary!

 

They also said the Fuel Pressure Transmitter wasn't putting out the 36-50 PSI the book calls for! It was 22 PSI. When the vacuum on the Fuel Pressure Regulator was increased to 28In Hg, the FP dropped to 10PSI and the engine ran correctly!

 

Am I looking at a defective FP Regulator? Or Fuel Pump?

Also, during the tune-up- I used Autolite Plugs. Is this a serious mistake? And having driven this about 5 miles to the repair shop (with it running super rich)- my new Autolite plugs are thoroughly carbon/soot coated black! BTW-I towed it home.

 

Any help any of you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

So, let me get this straight.

 

Without putting any external vacuum source on the regulator, the fuel pressure is 22 psi and the car runs like crap. If 28 in. is applied, the fuel pressure drops to 10 psi and the car runs good.

 

It would appear that the fuel pump isn't a problem since the car runs better with less pressure. I would look around in a junkyard for a complete throttle chamber, which houses the injector, throttle plate, TPS, and pressure regulator.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it would help if the ECU could give us some codes on the problem. Probably any question is already answered on this message board. I suggest a search of- white memory connector -. After you pull the codes, then clear the codes. Try starting the Loyale again then read the codes again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would try to find out why there is no vacuum first. There must be a blockage somewhere it seems to me.
:) The vacuum control on SPFI pressure regulators operates differently than the control on MPFI. That's why a vacuum reading almost zero can be normal.

I'm not sure if I'll post again on this board as I don't like having my post deleted without being given a reason.

Again Glen, thanks for the info on fuel injector ohms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kudos to Royboy159!!!! This guy helped me out immensely! The rich running fuel problem that I have been experiencing was caused by having the Green Connectors (used to set timing) [and located under the hood drivers side] connected!!!!! Disconnect these 2 connectors unless you are setting timing ! When I disconnected mine, engine RPM picked way up and rich running operation ceased!

 

I have since taken the car for a test drive and drove about 2-3 blocks and the engine started to miss and surge and do something totally new! I limped the car home, let it rest awhile, and did the same thing again- with the same results! Outside air temp is approx 60°F.

 

Again Royboy159 to the rescue! "Try unplugging the O2 Sensor" was his right-on advise! Sensor plugs into Catalytic Converter and has an Orange-ish wire that comes up under the axle against the Transmission and then heads towards the Firewall and into a connector. I unplugged the connector-and problem solved! So now I need an O2 sensor plus other unfinished business;

 

1) What caused my original failure- car died on the freeway with my wife driving. Would restart, but die as soon as the key was let go.

 

2 My Check Engine Light (CEL) is inop!

 

3 My LED on the ECU below the steering column is totally inop! It worked earlier this evening- I had 5 rapid flashes and then 5 more rapid flashes and so on.

 

I started disconnecting the Throttle Body, when I was interrupted by Royboy159. After reattachment (2 nuts and 4 hose clamps), and disconnecting Green and White connectors (used for testing), the LED would not Flash.

 

 

Sub

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the CEL light is not working when you turn the key to the 'on' position, and the bulb is ok, then the trouble may be in the ECU. I have had to replace an IC in the ECU that controls the ground to the bulb in the past and have talked with another person that did the same thing. It was a lot cheaper than getting another ECU.

 

If the LED in the ECU is not working, try connecting the green wires again and see if it works then with the key on.

 

 

To Royboy159:

 

Your welcome for the help on the injector resistance. Hope you stick around the site, you have some good knowledge that could help some folks here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks! I removed my badly carboned, brand new, Autolite plugs today and heated them in the Toaster Oven and then sprayed them with oven cleaner (my wifes idea)! My plugs look almost brand new again!

 

 

The CEL light is still inop, the light on the ECU is flashing 3 longs and 3 or 4 shorts(very hard to count) and then 2 longs and 4 shorts. I then realized that I have the O2 sensor disconnected as well as the white connectors! Atleast the LED is flashing again! The O2 Sensor cost $22 and change at Schucks- its a universal sensor- and it looks like it is going to be a royal pain to change!

 

Sub.

 

Again thanks to Royboy159 for his fantastic and knowledgeable help and insight last night! I would still be broke without him!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Sub, My theory on why the car died on the freeway is this:

When the O2 sensor started to fail, it started sending wacky data to the ECU. The ECU couldn't "see" it as wacky so it stores wacky compensation values and give the engine more gas. More gas makes the O2 sensor send even wackier data. Eventually the engine could't take it and died.

With the O2 sensor disconnected, the ECU "sees" this and operates in the limp-in mode. And as you've noticed, it's limping around pretty good.

As for replacing the O2 sensor, I bet it isn't easy. They make a special tool just for this. I don't know if an offset boxend would work. I'll bet it's important though not to put stress on any part except the nut. I imagine someone has posted their experience with it somewhere on this board.

I like that oven cleaner idea-----pretty inventive!

 

Hey Glen, If I remember Al Savage correctly, the LED won't flash codes when the CEL is inoperative. Maybe Sub's ECU is toggling around with that situation. So the ECU might pass the test but still be having the problem that you have much more experience with.

roy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To Roy:

 

You have a very good recollection. Al is the one that also worked on the CEL problem. As far as I know, a problem with the CEL circuit will not cause a problem with the LED of the ECU but I can't really confirm that. They are seperate circuits I believe. It may be a good science project to remove the CEL bulb and see if anything happens to the LED when that is done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Sub----Instead of following the proper procedure for erasing the DTCs, at this point of the game, I'd just remove the battery cable for ten minutes, erasing everything, and start fresh.

 

Hey Glen----I might give that science project a whirl. But not now. The temp out there is 5` .

roy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Replaced O2 sensor on Catalytic Converter and reconnected wire. Car runs.

 

 

Went to clear the codes per this post:

 

 

You're supposed to run the D-check procedure. Warm it up, shut it off, connect both the D-check green connectors and read mem connectors.

 

(edited later: I left this part out: Turn on the ignition, verify that the CEL light comes on, press accelerator to floor, then back off to half throttle for two seconds, then release it completely.)

 

Then drive it constantly above 5 mph for at least 39 seconds (yeah, I know). CEL is supposed to blink, indicating no codes found.

 

If, after about two minutes of driving above 5 mph, you get the CEL light again and it's not blinking, it's done with the diagnostic mode and it found another code, which you can then read. On my rig, I sometimes get a 51, Faulty Transmission Inhibitor Switch. Balls -- switch tests fine. Maybe it's intermittant, but it's sure no fun to get out and work with: I've done it once.

 

__________________

Regards,

Al S.

 

 

After connecting the White and Green Connectors- the Car would start and die- Just like original problem!

 

With White only connected- car runs ok.

With Green only connected-car starts and dies.

With White connected and car running: when green is connected-car dies! Seems like it is starving for fuel!

 

I think what has happened here is that both the white and green connectors (were noticed to be disconnected by owners/operators during under the hood inspections) and not knowing what the functions of the connecters were, reconnected them! So the car was driven for (I don't know how long!) in clear the memory mode! Or would it be better termed read memory + d-check mode?

 

Long story short- I cannot clear the memory!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Sub----I always wanted to know what would happen if I left those connectors connected. Before I forget--My apologies to your wife for us helping you fix her car. I'm sure she'd rather get another one!

Well, patience is a virtue. I think there's 13 things wrong with the car and we're only on #4.

It might be that with the green connectors connected, the timing is manually controlled. Retiming it should keep it running and hopefully have it run stronger when the connectors are apart.

 

Hey Hoozie---I'm glad that worked for you. The last time I used a breaker bar, the breaker bar broke. It was my brother-in-laws. Crap!

roy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So.... Do I have this straight? The car died on the road while the green connectors and the white connectors were tied together. If I remember correctly, the injector was not getting voltage to it. Is that right? If so, then whatever killed the engine is still a problem, with the connectors tied together at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That code clearing proceedure is for a

Gen I Legacy not Loyale

 

The USRM has the code clear method you need.

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/article.php?a=44

 

or here

http://www.troublecodes.net/Subaru/

 

Both methods do say to start the car with the two pair connected though.

Yours should be white and green not black and green I believe.

By the drivers side hood hinge under the hood.

 

Note codes will not clear if the problem still exists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That code clearing proceedure is for a

Gen I Legacy not Loyale

 

The USRM has the code clear method you need.

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/article.php?a=44

 

or here

http://www.troublecodes.net/Subaru/

 

Both methods do say to start the car with the two pair connected though.

Yours should be white and green not black and green I believe.

By the drivers side hood hinge under the hood.

 

Note codes will not clear if the problem still exists.

Skip-----I have no idea why but when the quick methods you've cited failed to clear my codes after repair, Al's method worked on my Loyale.

roy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disconnected the Battery tonight (01/24/05) for 30 minutes. Reconnected and verified codes were cleared with 5 flashes (fast).

Wife is going to drive car again tomorrow- I will check for faults in the evening.

She also confirmed that the car runs rough/ hesitates during acceleration (in town). I noticed it when getting on the freeway!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are not using NGK plugs and it has be some time since they were replaced I would get a set of those. The problem may also be due to a clogged fuel filter(s) or a weak fuel pump. Replace the filters first. Before replacing the pump, check the fuel pressure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Computer Codes

 

1 long 1 short Crank Angle Sensor (No Reference Pulse).

 

1 long 3 short Cam Angle Sensor.

 

2 long 3 short Air Flow Sensor.

 

3 long 4 short ?

3 long 5 short Canister Purge Control Solenoid.

 

5 long 1 short Neutral Switch.

 

 

Here is another interpretation: I like this one Better it is from :

 

http://www.troublecodes.net/Subaru/

 

88 and later models with Single-Point Fuel Injection

 

11Crank angle sensor or circuit 13Crank angle sensor or circuit 23Air flow meter or circuit34EGR solenoid or circuit35Purge control solenoid or circuit51Neutral switch continuously in the on position

 

Now to go figure out what they mean!

 

Sub

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To Roy:

 

You have a very good recollection. Al is the one that also worked on the CEL problem. As far as I know, a problem with the CEL circuit will not cause a problem with the LED of the ECU but I can't really confirm that. They are seperate circuits I believe. It may be a good science project to remove the CEL bulb and see if anything happens to the LED when that is done.

Hey Glen-----

Being too cold out to work on cars gave me time to think. Sub has already done the science project. He's pulling codes off the LED while his CEL has either a burnt bulb or circuit problem. So the CEL does not have to work to get codes from the LED.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Timing Light? Am I supposed to use the light while the Green Connectors are connected? What if I use the light with them diconnected? Will that skew the results? The car wont stay running with the greens connected! I do like your suggestion of timing belt! Some of my co-workers express the same thing do to codes 11 and 13 coming up and the fact that it will not stay running when the greens are connected! And it should!

 

I think I am going top tackle all the other code issues before I jump into replacing the stretched ( highly possible) timing belt!

 

I also need to deal with the starting problem that I still have after cleaning both Battery terminals real well! When the key is turned to start, sometimes the circuitry acts like a loose/ dirty battery connection- and the starter will do nothing or click once! After turning the key several times, the starter will rotate and the engine will light off! My wife says its getting worse! I suppose if I wait long enough- I'll get total failure and be able to track it down a lot easier ( I am starting to suspect starter-maybe brushes? 155,000+ miles)

 

Sub

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Sub-----

By timing, I didn't mean timing belt. If that's a problem we'll make it #12.

To check the timing with the connectors disconnected wouldn't mean much since the ECU would keep changing the timing to suit the situation. By connecting the TEST connectors you should be able to set it square at 20*. First try nudging the distributor a few degrees clockwise and if necessary a few degrees counterclockwise to allow the engine to start and stay running. Then perfect it with the light.

roy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...