singletrack Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Dave and I know a few guys with built rockcrawlers here in GJ, and after months of incessant Subaru rambling, we finally got our friend Brad to go wheel with us. This is the north side of town, the remains of a 100 million year old sea floor. It's a stark contrast to the southern side where uplift, faulting, and erosion exposed 170 million year old sandstone. Anyway, this is the 29 Road OHV area, generally used by ATVs and motos. It's a BLM "sacrafice zone" where cross-country travel and other destuctive use is permitted. This kinda stuff isn't cool elsewhere in the fragile desert. The manocos shale that comprises the area has the remarkable abilty to retain water at the surface without absorbing any to the ground water. The result is trails that look dry, but are really the most herendous, sticky, slick, heavy and generally impassable mud you can imagine. We started out with 5 vehicles; a lifted Cherokee, 2 Willys, and 2 Ru's. The Jeep and the green willys had issues in the first mile. They're both broken in this pic, so it's hard to say who's at the working end of that strap. Anway, it was just a fuse on the Willys, but the Jeep got left behind. Obviously we can't do what the Willi can do, but in an area devoid of big rocks, we could definetly hang. Most of the wheeling was ridiculously steep off-camber climbs up to car-width ridges. BTW, Brad fabbed that purdy roll cage himself. There were a couple spots where the Ru's got skooled. Try as we might, me and Dave couldn't clear this ravine. But it wasn't easy for the trucks either. I lost my back bumper here, and Dave knocked his starter wiring loose. Dave says the plastic peeled off my bumper "like a bananna". Much to Dave's delight, I got stuck twice. This one resulted in my first winch-ride. The mud is so obnoxious that the only thing turning was my clutch. None of my wheels could even manage to spin helplessly. Anyways, sorry for the long write-up, it was really just another winter day in the desert. Brad's talking about Bangs Canyon next week, which is full of Subaru-sized rocks. Should be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Nice. Keep the pictures and writeups coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Nice! Do either of you have welded diffs? Bumper skins always peel like that. I have seen a number of them do that. Looks like a fun place to wheel. I've ben jonesin' to go lately, so, I guess we'll have to get out next weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudduck Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Man I miss Colorado! Thats a fun area back there. Used to run that area quite a bit in a 88 toyota I had when I was living out there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 that looks like a supreme place to wheel at.....i'm jealous....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustyrider Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Nice! Do either of you have welded diffs? naw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Looks like a blast yall had. Time for some custom bumpers with legal tow points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathHatch Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Obviously we can't do what the Willi can do and why do you say this....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 and why do you say this....? Give that a try and let us know how it works out :-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Give that a try and let us know how it works out :-p Not a problem!! naw That would make a HUGE difference. If you had, you both would have made it through for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathHatch Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Give that a try and let us know how it works out :-p when i get my subie done i will post some pics of me parking on something or someones tires....soon....soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet82 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Looks like classic Moab / I-70 / San Rafael terrain. If I'm not mistaken that's clay and gooey when wet???? I've had problems moving on level ground in that Crap! I took the Forester through some of that crap last spring in the San Rafael Swell and it's still stuck on the bottom of my car Looks like a ton of fun! ...Gotts to wonder how "Summer" (my SubaruHummer) would handle the terrain I need to get down that way sometime... Glenn, 82 SubaruHummer 01 Forester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singletrack Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 If I'm not mistaken that's clay and gooey when wet???? I've had problems moving on level ground in that Crap! Yeah it was pretty nasty. All the north faces were mega-sloppy. We couldn't go above 25mph or so afterwards cause of the 50 pounds of mud on each wheel. Got a wicked shimmy. I had my roof/windows open, the car is full of that crap. The Willys were throwing so much, it looked like they were being attacked by a flock of birds. That would make a huge difference. If you had, you both would have made it through for sure! No doubt it would have helped that day. But mud runs here are very atypical. It hasn't rained/snowed in three weeks but still it's sloppy. Any wetter and both Willys and Ru woulda been stuck. That crap is insane. That said, it isn't like that 10 months a year. With rock and desert hardpack, traction just isn't an issue. I'm putting an LSD in the wagon, but me thinks a locker would be asking for trouble out here. Lemme ask you something, and I really appreciate and respect yer expertise on this subject, but in reading the old Rubicon threads, It seems you guys had two locked diffs and one LSD, right? Which one broke the most parts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezapar Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Lemme ask you something, and I really appreciate and respect yer expertise on this subject, but in reading the old Rubicon threads, It seems you guys had two locked diffs and one LSD, right? Which one broke the most parts? 3 locked diffs, two open. 3 including the front of Ken's 5speed dual range. Don't remember any of the diffs breaking. But, I believe we broke 5 stub axles. The LSD from Lumpycam's Unhatched was the hardest to remove the broken stub from. (see attached photo fo three people wreslting with it) He had originally built the LSD with air tools and put it together with the idea of making sure it wouldn't come apart easily. The stub broke and twisted, we couldn't remove it without completely disassembling the LSD unit itself. Which of course involves removing it from the carrier. fluid to deal with. The Rubicon made Ken a believer in the welded diffs, me too. The photo of the busted stub was taken after Ken broke the first one, first day, first obstacle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushbasher Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Give that a try and let us know how it works out :-p I've done it before, with a welded diff its no biggy as long as you can get your fender around the tire you're going up. I had to approach the tire at an angle and turn the wheel into it to get on. On the diff issue, a welded diff is more likely to break stuff, but thats also a sign that it helps more With your tires I wouldnt worry about it too much. I've been dropping the clutch on a welded diff with 30s in the back of my wagon and the trailing arms cranked down, broke some axle shafts because I welded to them, weakening the hardening. After I put new shafts in I havnt had a problem. Besides, rear axle parts are dirt cheap and quick to replace. A welded diff has got to be the single best improvement you can make to your suby. Traction wise it is easily as big a difference as going from stock tires to 28" off-road tires. Since you almost always have a rear wheel in the air when you're twisted up, welding it will give power to that one wheel thats still on the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunslinger Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Nice! Do either of you have welded diffs? Bumper skins always peel like that. I have seen a number of them do that. Looks like a fun place to wheel. I've ben jonesin' to go lately, so, I guess we'll have to get out next weekend. Qman, let me know if you guys go out next weekend. id love to go on a virgin voyage with y'all. sunday would work for me, i really have to work saterday, stupid side jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I've done it before, with a welded diff its no biggy as long as you can get your fender around the tire you're going up. I had to approach the tire at an angle and turn the wheel into it to get on. hah too cool; but how big was the tire you got up on? they most not have had any fenders either... or didnt care if you scratched them up? PICS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singletrack Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 A welded diff has got to be the single best improvement you can make to your suby. Well, the LSD is gonna be in there most of the time, I'm not willing to give up shift on the fly for normal use. But I've got 3 diffs to work with, one will likely get welded at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushbasher Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 hah too cool; but how big was the tire you got up on? they most not have had any fenders either... or didnt care if you scratched them up? PICS! a 36" TSL on the front of a tubed out jeep. I stopped before making it to the top, wasnt quite confident of the new COG my wagon has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky_pete Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 You guys have way too much fun. Definitely makes me wonder if the mountain trail by my house is thawed out enough to make a run at it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustyrider Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 3 locked diffs, two open. 3 including the front of Ken's 5speed dual range. Don't remember any of the diffs breaking. But, I believe we broke 5 stub axles. The LSD from Lumpycam's Unhatched was the hardest to remove the broken stub from. (see attached photo fo three people wreslting with it) He had originally built the LSD with air tools and put it together with the idea of making sure it wouldn't come apart easily. The stub broke and twisted, we couldn't remove it without completely disassembling the LSD unit itself. Which of course involves removing it from the carrier. fluid to deal with. The Rubicon made Ken a believer in the welded diffs, me too. The photo of the busted stub was taken after Ken broke the first one, first day, first obstacle. my ? is How many of the replaced stub axles broke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 After replacing the one I broke I never broke another thing on that trip. I believe the replacements held up fine as well. We did break a couple of axles though. Axles and stubs are usually easy to replace. 15 minutes and I was trail bound again. The issue with open and even LSD rear diffs is that when 1 tire loses traction that wheel gets all the power. With an LSD the tire that binds is released and then the tire with the least amount of traction gets the power. I ran a LSD for 4+ years and swore by them until I tried a welded diff. The other thing to keep in mind is the weight factor. The Sube doesn't weigh much so the wear is not as bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singletrack Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 The issue with open and even LSD rear diffs is that when 1 tire loses traction that wheel gets all the power. Gimmie a little credit:), I understand the value of a locker. My concern is generating too much torque to one wheel on slickrock, and blowing stuff up. Out here, for instance, bicycles commonly tear hubs in half on slickrock climbs. I've blown up my high-end Swiss made hubs three times while hammering. That's at 1/3 hp, depending on what I had for lunch. Frankly, my Banshee is put together a lot better than a Subaru. You could say that its apple and oranges, but you guys take yer axles out to run on pavement. Well, typically the rocks here are gonna give you more traction than you could ever get on pavement. I think if the car went three-wheel under power in such conditions, the axle/stub would blow fer sure. I know it's an easy fix, but not one I really wanna deal with regularly. I have no [automotive] experience to base this on, it's just what intuition tells me. Won't know till I try I guess. Anywho like I says, I'll prolly end up with an LSD and a locker, use the LS mostly and put the locker in when I wanna do something stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasteland Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 My concern is generating too much torque to one wheel on slickrock, and blowing stuff up. I've been thinking about the same thing, since the sand stone out here has so much traction it would seem the an LSD would be better suited for our area unless you get stuck in a three wheel motion. If it where more mud trails and absolute tracktion was a must , the welded diff is the way to go. I can see alot of broken stubs from running a welded rear on slickrock but I may be way off on this. Oh and Rad pics! I got a chance to use my shovel in some of that clay/glue about a week ago, MMMMM sticky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 sweet pics and such. were you by indian wash? i think i know where you were. i've done a lot of wheeling in moffat county, similar terrain. i just got a welded diff and i think it will help on those rocks. desert rocks are so hard and smooth your tires tend to spin before they would on pavement, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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