Mjez Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 I have a `95 Subaru Legacy that does not want to start. About two weeks ago I replaced timing belt and last weekend I replaced spark plugs, car was working fine after that. But in the last couple of days I had a really hard time starting it especially when it was cooler in the morning. And today it didn’t start at all. I checked secondary resistance of the coil and it looks fine. Primary resistance is higher by about .04 ohm so I don’t think it would make a huge difference. Fuel pump works fine. Unplugged fuel line and turn the key in the ignition and it started spraying fuel. Interestingly enough after I removed spark plugs to see if there is spark I found that cylinder 1 and 2 get spark and cylinders 3 and 4 don’t get any when I crank the engine until the moment when I turn the key in the ignition back to position 2. Does any one know what could this be. Could it be ignition coil, ignitor or maybe cables…. Please help Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 cam angle position sensor is where i would start. Very few things will keep the car from starting The cam angle, crank angle and engine temp. Since your spark is odd i would look at the cam angle sensor and the ignitor. Did you do anything else like replace the tensioner? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 10, 2006 Author Share Posted June 10, 2006 cam angle position sensor is where i would start. Very few things will keep the car from starting The cam angle, crank angle and engine temp. Since your spark is odd i would look at the cam angle sensor and the ignitor.Did you do anything else like replace the tensioner? nipper Tensioner? you mean timing belt tensioner, no, did not replace it. talked to dealer and they said they never do unless it's bad... thanks for the info Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 well you have a few possabilites. The tensioner went bad and the timing belt came off or jumped, or the cam angle/crank angle sensor is bad. The dealer gave you bad information. Of course they are going to say that becuase if it goes bad a week later, they get to charge you the labor all over again to get to the part. Why did you use a dealer and not a local garage? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 10, 2006 Author Share Posted June 10, 2006 well you have a few possabilites. The tensioner went bad and the timing belt came off or jumped, or the cam angle/crank angle sensor is bad.The dealer gave you bad information. Of course they are going to say that becuase if it goes bad a week later, they get to charge you the labor all over again to get to the part. Why did you use a dealer and not a local garage? nipper didn't use the dealer, did it myself. anyway, if timing belt came off or slipped it would just stop working then. and my car had hard time starting for few days and today it won't start at all, does not sound like timing belt has slipped to me but I'll check it anyway. how do you test crankshaft/camshaft position sensors? I tested resistance on both, it was just under 2kohms. according to manual it's within the range. what about ignitor, could this cause anything like that? Is there a good way to test one? I wanted to go to autozone to get coil and ignitor and try them both to see if any of them would fix this problem but they don't do returnes on any of their electrical purchases, and I don't feel like spending $350+ for something I will not even need. does any one know of a good subaru mechanic in north suburbs of Chicago??? few more hours and of this and I might go crazy here:confused: thanks for all comments Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 have you tried to pull any codes? you can also go to a junkyard and pull a coil pack and an ignitor. You can also have somone crank the engine while a analog meter is hooked up to the crank sensor,. SInce you have spark out of the first pack and not the second, maybe it is a coil pack. The ignitor i think would be intermittent or dead. If you can do the crank angle and cam anglke check and get a heart beat, i would look at the coil and the ignitor. Pick them both up at the junkyard (or a couple of each). nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 10, 2006 Author Share Posted June 10, 2006 have you tried to pull any codes? you can also go to a junkyard and pull a coil pack and an ignitor. You can also have somone crank the engine while a analog meter is hooked up to the crank sensor,. SInce you have spark out of the first pack and not the second, maybe it is a coil pack. The ignitor i think would be intermittent or dead. If you can do the crank angle and cam anglke check and get a heart beat, i would look at the coil and the ignitor. Pick them both up at the junkyard (or a couple of each). nipper what am I looking for while testing crankshaft/camshaft position sensor? just resistance? when I took it out to clean it I did test its resistance and it was showing lower resistance every time I put it close to metal object. I think I'm going to take a break now and go watch F1 qualifying for silverstone race... thanks for all the useful info. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 10, 2006 Author Share Posted June 10, 2006 BTW, didn't try to get any codes because I drained the battery while trying to start it and then checking for the spark, so I had to disconnect it and put some charge in it. thanks again Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 what am I looking for while testing crankshaft/camshaft position sensor? just resistance? when I took it out to clean it I did test its resistance and it was showing lower resistance every time I put it close to metal object. I think I'm going to take a break now and go watch F1 qualifying for silverstone race... thanks for all the useful info. Matt your looking for an a/c blip on an analog multimeter. Not everything is tested by resistance. you can crank the engine by hand to test it to. The "manual" should tell you how. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Matt, You could monitor the voltage going to the primary of the coil pack to narrow down the problem. Attach a voltmeter between the center terminal (of the three pin connector) and an end terminal, watch for voltage pulses while cranking the car. Repeat the procedure checking the other end terminal. If you are missing voltage on one of the pairs, the problem is your ignitor, ECU/ECM or one of the sensors (cam, crank, etc.) If both voltages are OK, but you have no spark out of one section of the coil pack= bad coil pack! Also, wiring or connectors anywhere in the primary circuit or to any of the sensors in question could cause your issues. If everything checks OK, you may have to start doing continuity tests. FYI, I also believe that faulty crank/cam sensors will throw codes even if you can't get the car started. Let us know what you find. Best of luck, Nathan I have a `95 Subaru Legacy that does not want to start. About two weeks ago I replaced timing belt and last weekend I replaced spark plugs, car was working fine after that. But in the last couple of days I had a really hard time starting it especially when it was cooler in the morning. And today it didn’t start at all. I checked secondary resistance of the coil and it looks fine. Primary resistance is higher by about .04 ohm so I don’t think it would make a huge difference. Fuel pump works fine. Unplugged fuel line and turn the key in the ignition and it started spraying fuel. Interestingly enough after I removed spark plugs to see if there is spark I found that cylinder 1 and 2 get spark and cylinders 3 and 4 don’t get any when I crank the engine until the moment when I turn the key in the ignition back to position 2. Does any one know what could this be. Could it be ignition coil, ignitor or maybe cables…. Please help Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 11, 2006 Author Share Posted June 11, 2006 Ok, so I tested signal coming from both crankshaft as well as camshaft sensors and they seem working fine, I don’t know the exact figures but I was getting voltage fluctuations on both of those sensors. Then I took the timing belt covers to see if it became loose or of it jumped a tooth or more, looks perfect, just as I taught. I pulled one of the injectors out for peace of mind and it also looks clean. Now I have igniter in my hand and I’m trying to find on the net any schematics to see if there’s anything else I can measure on it. Thanks again for all the advice… now I’m back to work And it was suppose to be a great Saturday, I was gonna go to e34 M5 meet in Chicago. Ohhh well, at least I have some fun with my father’s in law car… Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcspeer Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 I am thinking maybe coil pact also. Did you check and make sure your vacum line that comes from the idle air control valve to the air filter tube is still on, this is a common problem after changing spark plugs. Ok, so I tested signal coming from both crankshaft as well as camshaft sensors and they seem working fine, I don’t know the exact figures but I was getting voltage fluctuations on both of those sensors. Then I took the timing belt covers to see if it became loose or of it jumped a tooth or more, looks perfect, just as I taught. I pulled one of the injectors out for peace of mind and it also looks clean. Now I have igniter in my hand and I’m trying to find on the net any schematics to see if there’s anything else I can measure on it. Thanks again for all the advice… now I’m back to work And it was suppose to be a great Saturday, I was gonna go to e34 M5 meet in Chicago. Ohhh well, at least I have some fun with my father’s in law car… Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 11, 2006 Author Share Posted June 11, 2006 Here we go again. Checked idle control valve resistance and voltage, looks fine. Vacuum hose is also attached, there’s only one hose coming from air tube, right? I disconnected coil pack again and checked voltage coming to coil pack while cranking the engine. I got 12v from the middle pin, almost 6v between middle pin and one of the side pins, and just over 8v between middle pin and the pin on the other side. Are those voltages supposed to be fluctuating as the engine is cranked, because they did not? I had same values with key turned to position 2 as well as with cranking the engine. I also checked for spark today after we pushed the car inside a garage. And interestingly enough, I get perfect spark on cylinders 1-2 and no spark at all on cylinders 3-4. Isn’t this a dual coil that supplies cylinders 1-2, and 3-4? What do you guys think about the voltages I get to the coil, do the above voltage values sound correct? If so I think that it’s definitely a bad coil that needs to be replaced. Now if it is coil, which one should I buy? Like I said before this is my father’s in law car, he needs it to go to work. And the only coil available in the area is from auto zone manufactured by wells, are they any good and reliable? Or would it be better to wait an order oem from the net, or dealer? Thanks again for all the input guys. Almost time for F1 race from Silverstone Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 sounds like you have a dead coil pack. Go to a scrapyard and get one or two and see if that fixes it. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Here we go again. Another day off spent with this d@mn car and still nothing. I’m about to start pulling my hair out… So I went to a local junk yard today and found one Legacy. I pulled ignition coil and ignitor. Came home thinking it’s over; switched coil first, started the car, NOTHING. So I switched ignitor thinking that it’ll definitely fix the problem, still nothing. I tried different combinations switching the two and nothing. Tested the cables thinking that maybe 3-4 cylinder cables got damaged somehow, still nothing. So now I’m thinking to myself what is the problem with this car… is there anything else that I should test/check. How do I do continuity test, where to connect and what, so I know for sure that the circuit is good. Also, how come I get spark on cylinders 1-2 and no spark at all on cylinders 3-4??? Somebody please help me before I go boldL Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Almost forgot, what about air flow meter? Could it cause this? Or even ECM, could the ECM be bad in this car. How do I test the above??? Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 After trying to crank it can you retrieve codes? Might point to a problem. Anybody know if zero/low oil pressure will prevent starting? Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 After trying to crank it can you retrieve codes? Might point to a problem. Anybody know if zero/low oil pressure will prevent starting? Carl I tried retrieving codes, which connector is it? I tried couple of them. When I plugged one in and turned the key, fan motors started going and it sounded like few more relays are working, then I noticed that "check engine" light was flickering so I disconnected and then connected it again but light wasn't flashing at all. going back to junk yard, I'll try get a ECM Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 thats what it does when you connect the diagnostic connector. you are supposed to dount the flashes of the cel. Get yourself a haynes manual so we can get a better idea on how that procedure works. Sounds like your ecu is doing just what its supposed to do. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 thats what it does when you connect the diagnostic connector. you are supposed to dount the flashes of the cel.Get yourself a haynes manual so we can get a better idea on how that procedure works. Sounds like your ecu is doing just what its supposed to do. nipper I got Haynes manual, but don’t really like the way it’s written. Something new now, I reversed connection to the coil and the other side works just fine. So at least now I know for sure that coil pack is fine and it fires on cylinders 1-2 and also on 3-4 when the cables are reversed. I also checked connection between main harness and the connector that goes to the coil, checked out fine. So now the question is: could it be faulty ECM? Or is it possible that the ignitors in my car as well as in the one from the junkyard are faulty? I’m thinking about getting ECM from junkyard and putting it in my car to see if that’s what the problem is, but honestly I would rather try ignitor from a working car… so if you live in north suburbs of Chicago and would like to help then please drop me a line… Thanks guys Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Do you have an LED test light? LED is important because some ignitors do reverse polarity (im not an electronics wiz so i dont know why)If you do remove the connnnector from the coil pack. Touch the test life to each of the outside terminals as somone cranks the car. If the light blinks, the ignitor is working. if the light is not flashing you have a bad ignitor, crankshaft sensor or an ecm issue. Rule out the other two first, since if you replace the ecm and it still doesnt start, its one of the other two. It sounds like the ignitor is getting a signal, but the ignitor is bad. Crank sensors usually work or they dont. If you can get an affordable ecu and want to try it go ahead. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 You may want to double check the CPS sensor to see if it is damaged. A couple of the tips may be broken off and causing the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I suspect that the problem may be due to some broken taps on the CPS sensor. I would check that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 I suspect that the problem may be due to some broken taps on the CPS sensor. I would check that out. broken taps...? where on the CPS, I took it out and saw nothing, then tested it, seems fine. what's the best method to test it besides spinning the crank and measuring its output? I found digital probe with some LCD's on it, will test the ignitor tomorrow morning and see what happens. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 you need an analog meter and spin the crank and get a pulse. Unless you have an oscilliscope that is the way you test them, it is accepted on that bassis as it has an ac output. You cant use an digital meter as the sampling rate is too high and the output is to low the meter will never see it. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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