seattlelegacy Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Hi guys, long time no posts.... I was just replacing the accessory belts on my 93 leg wagon last night, and knowing that my timing belt has about 65K on, I pulled to covers to take a look at it. It looks perfect. Am I missing something here? It looks friggin brand new. So then I call Subaru, to verify that the interval is 60K on the 2.2s and they agree. Should I be replacing it soon anyway? It looks perfect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Mine's been on for almost 100k miles and it works just fine. That 60k stuff is crap. 100k is probably a better interval. Mind you, this is Subaru saying this and everytime you take it to them to do it, they charge you 70+ an hour for labor so they just nail you. Besides, if the timing belt breaks on our cars..so what. It's not like the engine will explode or anything. Remember, pre-1997 EJ22's are not interference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Mine's been on for almost 100k miles and it works just fine. That 60k stuff is crap. 100k is probably a better interval. Mind you, this is Subaru saying this and everytime you take it to them to do it, they charge you 70+ an hour for labor so they just nail you. Besides, if the timing belt breaks on our cars..so what. It's not like the engine will explode or anything. Remember, pre-1997 EJ22's are not interference Ya some one at subaru told me about the engine being non interference therefore the engine will not get seized if it does break. By the way if it does brake the car wont move right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 correct, the car won't run if the timing belt brakes on an EJ22. i've pulled ones at 100,000 miles that look fine on the EJ25, still has the subaru stuff on it with minimal wear. actual breakage will depend on many, many factors with a built in margin of error and safety factor. so yes, any belt should outlast it's service change interval buy a fair amount. when an idler bearing seizes or oil and antifreeze get on the belt or the car overheats (and the belt gets hot)...it is desirable for the belt to far exceed it's suggested change interval. the tighter they make tolerances the more likely to have customers sitting on the side of the road, that doesn't make for happy customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 actually your overlooking one thing. Belts dont break so much as stretch and slip and jump teeth. Also since the belt is pretty much in a clean self contained area, its not surprising for it to look good as new. Timing belts usually pick the most inoportune time to fail. Also the failure can sometimes drive you nuts to try it find it (car runs but doesnt idle smooth, or lost power to name two) Always better to replace something on your scehduale then the cars. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 There are two intervals for the early 90's Legacies. The Federal spec was 60K, The California spec was 100K. They are all 100K now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avk Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I have just removed a belt from a 1995 2.2l engine with 80000 miles and visibly, it was in a perfect shape too. But the crankshaft and camshaft seals, which were the old black-colored type, hardened up and were due for replacement, as were O-rings that seal camshaft supports to the heads. I'd say if there are no oil leaks, there's no reason to repalce the belt before 100000 miles, especially if it's true that currently supplied timing belts are all made for 105000 mile replacement interval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I think all 2.5's are 105k, so looking at a 100k belt on a 2.5 won't tell you much. I have to admit, the 93 wagon had its original timing belt at 110k. It definitely needed to be replaced, but it made it. I still won't argue with 60k though. Better safe than sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
970subaru Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 interval shminterval. just examine it. if it is at 60k and has no cracks, run it. check it every 10k or so, the covers are easy to pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subeman90 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 my 99 legacy 2.2 is in the shop today getting a new t-belt. It has 60,500 on it and with it being an interference engine...I'm not going to chance it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 my 99 legacy 2.2 is in the shop today that's the kicker....97 and up interference motors aren't worth taking the chance on. even if the belt looks good i'd rather get in there and roll them pulleys around and make sure none are seized or tight. MA you don't change you're own belt? no time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subeman90 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I won't do this car b/c it is an interference engine. Think of it this way: I'm getting a new t-belt, all front seals, water pump, t-stat, oil pump reseal, and oil change (I am providing the filter) all for the low price of just under $400. Now on the other hand if i do this myself and screw something up and the valves go crunch then I am willing to bet i will be out a little more than the $400...that is my reasooning on this. Plus it is hot out.... and i'm lazy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 I won't do this car b/c it is an interference engine. Think of it this way: I'm getting a new t-belt, all front seals, water pump, t-stat, oil pump reseal, and oil change (I am providing the filter) all for the low price of just under $400. Now on the other hand if i do this myself and screw something up and the valves go crunch then I am willing to bet i will be out a little more than the $400...that is my reasooning on this. Plus it is hot out.... and i'm lazy.... where in hell are you people getting these deals? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subeman90 Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 I picked it up today at 5pm.... the bill was $360 cash like i said above the only parts i gave them was the oil filter and the crush ring. BTW, the mechanic/owner put his emissions machine on it while he was filling the coolant and set the computer to show the coolant temp sensor while he did it....the fans kick on at exactly 203*. Cool sh%@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Brighton Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 The crank pulley just went on the wagon. With 125,000 miles, an oil leak and no idea if the belt was ever changed, I think its time to do the front of the engine. Subeman90 I'm in your neck of the woods. Where do you get your work done? $360 sounds like a great deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I picked it up today at 5pm.... the bill was $360 cash like i said above the only parts i gave them was the oil filter and the crush ring. let's see 360$ for the t-belt and stuff, akron, pa... that's 700 miles round trip, at 25 miles per gallon , which cost 3$ per gallon, plus a room overnight, hopefully he can do it in a day... he11, that still beates my guy by 125$. you're sleeping with his wife, right? he's paying you to sleep with her!!! where in akron did you say rhis guy was???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phxmotorelectri Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 YES yes...yes I know my response is on an old thread: but this should be addressed: Timing belt intervels: Timing belts last much longer than water pumps. It is the water pump that needs to be replaced at 100-105k miles. Timing belts can last much longer. If you have ever seen how belts are made you would see that they do not stretch. Old belts may have the rubber "shrink" and it loosens the belt on old style timing belt designs ie; they were non adjustable - but modern timing belts are self adjusting - hence the very long life of modern timing belts because of modern pressure filled belt tensioners. BUT: the discussion on this thread has centered around belt life. This is misleading to the reality of timing belt service life decisions... It is not the belt that fails at 100k miles. It is the waterpump. Timing belts are over engineered. Modern tensioners if replaced when the belt is replaced keep the belt from ever "slipping". Whatever rubber shrinkage occurs on veryvery old belts will be compensated for by the tensioner. BUT: water pumps technology hasn't improved A BIT from 50 years ago. The longest a water pump can last is about 125k miles tops... and most will fail at about 105k miles. Water pumps begin to suffer a loose shaft bushing at about 105k miles. Old water pumps that ran off a "fan belt" had MUCH shorter lifes if a shop deliberatly overtightened the belt...the same water pump that could last 125,000 miles would only last 40,000 miles if a shop intentionally overtightened it... and many shops did this as a matter of policy... Old water pumps make a rattling sound (at 1st it's only at startup and at idle)... ...or... the water pump seal begins to leak. ie: water pump life determines the timing belt life. Not because it causes the timing belt to fail... but because while you are replaceing an old water pump you may as well replace the timing belt. Seriously: the real repair needed during a timing belt job is the water pump. I've seen belts last well over 195k miles but only on engines with water pumps NOT driven by the timing belt. Timing belts with automatic tensioners can last a longlonglong time. But W-P's can not. If the day ever somes that high quality water pumps are made then the timing belt life will magically be made 150-175k miles overnight... with manditory replacement of the tensioner-seals-idlers-sprockets-ets at the time of t-belt replacement. But this will never happen. This is how I know this: My 1st Subaru experience was with a 96 2.2 Outback of a neighbor. The timing belt broke! And it has been replaced 15,000 miles prior to its breaking! How could a NEW BELT break?! Because: Believe it or not: he had decided to "save" money by replacing only the belt (as per factory recomendation) but neglected to change the water pump! ... his reasoning?... He figured that the belt was required by the factory service guide... but the water pump was only "recomended" to be changed... so much for saving a few bucks! The joke is: it is actually the water pump that fails 1st. Final punch line to this story: The timing belt broke in this fashion: it drives the water pump by riding over the flat side of the belt... on Subaru engines for some reason when the water pump hits about 125k miles it actually "freezes up!"... It "skids" across the frozen-up water pump! It skids for about 10 minutes of driving... it starts to smoke... it gets hot... until it MELTS! Then it breaks. Its a new belt yet it breaks! In a 2.2 non-interference engine no damage is done. But the lying shop he took it to told him that his engione was ruined. I had never worked on a Subaru engine before but I dove into this one just to prove to my neighbor that the shop had lied to him... within 3 hrs it was back to running like new... that was 8 years ago and his car is still running fine, passing the smog test, and saving him and his family money. I have KEPT the idler pullies and water pump and the timing belt pieces from this repair for years! To prove that this is what happens when a Subaru owner fails to replace the water pump... To prove that it is the water pump and NOT the timing belt that is 1st to fail and To prove even a new timing belt can't last when an old water pump ruins it. Ask any Subaru enthusiast or Subaru mechanic if he-she has seen this. If they have been around a year or two they will have seen this happen at least once. This is not a rare story... and I do believe it's a W-P story more than a timing belt story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eppoh Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 With these cars getting to the 15 year old stage, they get traded by used car dealers. Often they will slap a new T-belt on them so they can say "oh yeah, new timing belt" The average buyer does not understand the problem with not changing water pump or idlers, and a year later, wham! When I was looking for used wagon for my son, I checked out several small dealers cars. They would universally say, yeah we changed the timing belt. When I asked about idlers or water pump, I would get a blank stare and then they would say, "no they were fine". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Nice try but tell that to people who have had timing belts jump at 120,000 miles, and there are quite a few here who have skipped the interval that have had that happen. There is alway one or twobut i will never ever tell someone the mfg is wrong on a 800 bet vs a 1500 or more repair.. I too have seen things exceed their recomended intervals, but unlesss you are seeing all 275,000 units built a year that is not a valid judgement. If you have ever life testes belts you will see all belts stretch over time, that is why they have tensioners. They also have to deal with suddenly chainging loads, heat, and a big killer of rubber, ozone. You say your neighbor cheaped out on the repair, that must mean then the idlers and tensioners were not done (nor the seals most likely which is just dumb). Subaru highly recomends replacing the timing belt, waterpump tensioners at the same time. On high mileage parts, suddenly unloading them after 100,000 happy miles then the work to put a new belt on is just enough to stress the parts. Poor logic say what you wish, but unless you are willing to personally pay for others repairs when the timing belt breaks Sorry your logic is completly flawed, if you wish to run your cars that way it is your money, but i would never ever give this advice to anyone with any car with a timing belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 that's fine if that's how you like to do it. it's obvious you're ready to argue the point and have zero discussion on it, but it's not very good advice for the masses. high mileage water pumps are the norm. you're looking at anecdotal experiences - there are far more timing belts failing before they're intervals than there are even water pumps failing. you can do a search here or on any car/truck forum and see more timing belt issues than water pump issues - so the proof is out there if you want to see it. also - timing belt replacement is just as much about replacing the pulleys as it is the belts. there's a ton of threads on here, and other car forums, of the pulleys failing and taking the belt with them. a belt change allows you to replace them or check them. water pumps are also much more likely to give you signs before they fail than a timing belt. seeping, leaking, noises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 that's fine if that's how you like to do it. it's obvious you're ready to argue the point and have zero discussion on it, but it's not very good advice for the masses. high mileage water pumps are the norm. you're looking at anecdotal experiences - there are far more timing belts failing before they're intervals than there are even water pumps failing. you can do a search here or on any car/truck forum and see more timing belt issues than water pump issues - so the proof is out there if you want to see it. also - timing belt replacement is just as much about replacing the pulleys as it is the belts. there's a ton of threads on here, and other car forums, of the pulleys failing and taking the belt with them. a belt change allows you to replace them or check them. water pumps are also much more likely to give you signs before they fail than a timing belt. seeping, leaking, noises. Without a lot personal experience, how do you know when a pulley needs to be exchanged? For even an experienced mechanic, it's an educated guess at best. How did the mechanic at the dealership learn to recognise a failing pulley? He does a timing belt replacement without replacing the pullies. When the customer comes back in 20,000 miles with a shredded timing belt the mechanic says to himself, "you know, maybe that cogged pulley did sound a tiny bit rough maybe I should have replaced it. Oh well, maybe I'll replace it the next time I hear a pulley like that". At one point the pulley sounds "good", but at some point later it sounds "bad". How fast does that change happen? Does anyone know for sure, not really? The pulley that sounds ''good' during the timing belt change could sound like crap 50,000 miles down the road. 105,000 miles is a very long interval. If you change the timing belt at 105,000 miles and plan on keeping the car to 200,000 miles, I say change all the pullies. Even that guarantees you nothing, but it does give you your best shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 you are correct, i'm rarely confident leaving pulleys for another 100,000 miles. i did one vehicle recently, a 2000-2004 generation (forget which one it was) where the pulleys were in really good shape, but that's more the exception than the rule. almost never do they feel "like new", so it's ambiguous to some degree. it is heat that destroys the pulleys. they loose grease, overheat, and seize or fail or both. they loose grease - if you repack them, which i've done, they feel just as smooth as brand new ones. one method to test may be to come up with some kind of temperature test - see how hot they're getting under load - but who wants to do that? i almost always replace them all. another option for the extremely frugal is to check the pulleys/belt once or twice between change intervals - it's not that hard to just pull the belt itself if you can do the work yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyeights Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I just recently pulled timing components off of (2) EJ22E's both at about 140k miles are the grease was gone from the bearings in all of the idlers and tensioner. They weren't destroyed yet but IMO they couldn't be used any longer without at least re-packing them. The water pump bearings still felt ok. I did re-pack one set with a needle just to see what they felt like and as above they felt like new again. I didn't re-install them however. Just FYI if the mileage helps any. I wonder how long do they last when they are re-packed if you don't destroy the seal doing it. Has anyone tried this with success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) I wonder how long do they last when they are re-packed if you don't destroy the seal doing it. Has anyone tried this with success?yes some folks have done it. it works but it's hard to remove the bearing seals without compromising them. they end up slightly dimpled and not "perfect". i use a needle fitting for a grease gun. don't overpack. the grease will expand and push the seal out or creep out around the edges and sling everywhere. so far the ones i've done have held up fine. i haven't kept track enough to know how many miles/condition afterwards though. what would be sweet would be if you could buy new bearing seals so you could pry the old off and install a new one. Edited July 13, 2011 by grossgary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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