89hatch Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Hi, I'm usually over on the older gen sube thread, but I just picked up a 95 Legacy AWD last night with an odd issue. It's an automatic with 154,000 on it and when you put it in any gear including reverse, the speedometer moves, but the car doesn't. It sounds like the trans is spinning, but not getting out to the cv's(which look fine). Almost as if the car had all four cv's taken off. I revved it a little and when I put it back in park, it grinded a bit because the gears were still spinning(just like when you're still moving and you jam into park) Ever hear of this? Could the trans be fine, but the front diff wasted? If I get a trans from the junkyard, do they usually come with the front diff as well? Sorry for all the questions. Oh yeah, I did check the fluid in the trans and it's a bit below the lowest hole on the stick. I'll fill it up tonight, but I can't believe that's gonna fix the problem. Thanks for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Hi! How'd you get this car home? Well, I'd think even if the front diff were wasted maybe it would at least drive the rear wheels being AWD? Is the FWD fuse installed? You could check the front diff level and see if there's any oil in there and/or lots of shavings. Could pull one of the ATF cooler hoses off the radiator and see if the AT is even pumping fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 18, 2006 Author Share Posted August 18, 2006 I pulled it home with a tow dolly with the trans in N and the driveshaft unbolted at the rear. In case it wasn't clear, the speedometer only moves with the car running and I put it in gear. That's a good point about driving the rear wheels at least, but it definitely doesn't. Could the front be that wasted that it doesn't transfer any power to the rear? Who knows. I forgot to check the fuse, thanks for the reminder. I'll be draining the fluid tomorrow. Anyone ever seen this before? Hi! How'd you get this car home? Well, I'd think even if the front diff were wasted maybe it would at least drive the rear wheels being AWD? Is the FWD fuse installed? You could check the front diff level and see if there's any oil in there and/or lots of shavings. Could pull one of the ATF cooler hoses off the radiator and see if the AT is even pumping fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 The speedometer is driven off the front diff's pinion, so if it is reading something then the tranny section is not this problem. Ring&Pinion and differential are pretty tough assemblies, so I would suspect something "weaker": 1) A stub-axle may have pulled loose from the tranny. 2) DOJ (inner "CV" joint) may have been hyper-extended. 3) DOJ cup may have broken 4) Outer splines (axle or hub) stripped. (Problem with pre-Legacy; not sure if Legs have this problem.) Front diff is "open", so if one wheel "slips" nothing will happen. AWD might be spoofed by this slippage and not engage rear drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 18, 2006 Author Share Posted August 18, 2006 Great ideas, thanks!! Can you further explain # 1 and 2? Maybe just say what DOJ stands for. I do all the work on my cars, but I can't figure what DOJ stands for. I'm still learning how the front part of the AWD works. Thanks again. The speedometer is driven off the front diff's pinion, so if it is reading something then the tranny section is not this problem. Ring&Pinion and differential are pretty tough assemblies, so I would suspect something "weaker": 1) A stub-axle may have pulled loose from the tranny. 2) DOJ (inner "CV" joint) may have been hyper-extended. 3) DOJ cup may have broken 4) Outer splines (axle or hub) stripped. (Problem with pre-Legacy; not sure if Legs have this problem.) Front diff is "open", so if one wheel "slips" nothing will happen. AWD might be spoofed by this slippage and not engage rear drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 The inner "CV" joint is technically a Double-Offset Joint (DOJ) and not a Constant Velocity joint... semantics, sorry. 1) The stub-axle that goes into the tranny and to which the DOJ is splined-and-pinned is only retained by a little internal circlip, so it is relatively easy for the axle to get pulled-loose by less-than-careful maintenance and maybe by other forces. If it has pulled loose no power can be transmitted through it, which will cause no power to go anywheres. Pretty easy to eyeball this one, as you will see too much of the axle showing (should be hidden by the DOJ), and the DOJ will be too far away from the tranny case. 2) The inner DOJ is a sliding joint. It is possible for the joint to come apart if the axle is slid too far outwards. This is a little harder to eyeball as the rubber boot hides the "dislocation" (medical analogy, not automotive term ). Look for a distended/elongated boot area as compared to the other side. 3) The DOJ cup (attached to the tranny-side) can crack and let the joint's internals roughly spin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 18, 2006 Author Share Posted August 18, 2006 Great explanation, thanks!! I always thought both ends of the axle were Constant Velocity...now I know. If the problem is the stub axle being loose via the clip breaking or other means, can you get to the area where a new clip can be snapped on or does the diff need to come apart to access? How about if it's the cup...is it easier to fix or just get another trans and diff? Thanks again for your time. The inner "CV" joint is technically a Double-Offset Joint (DOJ) and not a Constant Velocity joint... semantics, sorry. 1) The stub-axle that goes into the tranny and to which the DOJ is splined-and-pinned is only retained by a little internal circlip, so it is relatively easy for the axle to get pulled-loose by less-than-careful maintenance and maybe by other forces. If it has pulled loose no power can be transmitted through it, which will cause no power to go anywheres. Pretty easy to eyeball this one, as you will see too much of the axle showing (should be hidden by the DOJ), and the DOJ will be too far away from the tranny case. 2) The inner DOJ is a sliding joint. It is possible for the joint to come apart if the axle is slid too far outwards. This is a little harder to eyeball as the rubber boot hides the "dislocation" (medical analogy, not automotive term ). Look for a distended/elongated boot area as compared to the other side. 3) The DOJ cup (attached to the tranny-side) can crack and let the joint's internals roughly spin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 The clip is a compression-retention clip, so it is meant to allow the axle to come out with some force. From what I understand (no first-hand experience yet, but am disassembling a 4EAT with a pulled stub) the clip can fall off inside of the diff, requiring it be fished out (drain plug is magnetic), or it can stay on the stub-axle. Others have recommended that the clip be replaced with new before reinserting stub back into the diff. The DOJ's cup is part of the axle assembly, so all of the normal axle options are applicable. If just hyperextended you can unclamp the boot and put everything right, or you can replace the axle. It the DOJ cup is broken replace the axle. On other makes, the outer CV can also hyperextend; the ones I have dealt with on Soobs seemed too tight to do this. Another possible problem is that the differential portion could have broken (spider/side gears or shafts). Again, other parts are likely to break first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Might not be applicable, but interesting reading: http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/4EATMovementInfoS01.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 18, 2006 Author Share Posted August 18, 2006 Hmm, interesting. I'll be investigating this weekend and I'll let you guys know. Thanks for all the help. Might not be applicable, but interesting reading:http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/4EATMovementInfoS01.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 i assume you reconnected the rear drive shaft?? even if the front was kaput the rear should work . Hmm, interesting. I'll be investigating this weekend and I'll let you guys know. Thanks for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 18, 2006 Author Share Posted August 18, 2006 Yep, rear driveshaft is connected and no wheels are spinning in any gear except neutral of course. I can hear the trans spinning, but it's not getting out to the wheels. i assume you reconnected the rear drive shaft?? even if the front was kaput the rear should work . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcspeer Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 I can answer one question, yes the transmission comes as a complete unit with the front diff. I know because I just bought one a few months back for a 98 Legacy wagon you can look to pay around 400.00 to 900.00 dollars for one and you can find all you need by putting your request with Junk Yard Dog. The only thing tough about changing it was getting to the torqe converter bolts the rest was easy. Hi, I'm usually over on the older gen sube thread, but I just picked up a 95 Legacy AWD last night with an odd issue. It's an automatic with 154,000 on it and when you put it in any gear including reverse, the speedometer moves, but the car doesn't. It sounds like the trans is spinning, but not getting out to the cv's(which look fine). Almost as if the car had all four cv's taken off. I revved it a little and when I put it back in park, it grinded a bit because the gears were still spinning(just like when you're still moving and you jam into park) Ever hear of this? Could the trans be fine, but the front diff wasted? If I get a trans from the junkyard, do they usually come with the front diff as well? Sorry for all the questions. Oh yeah, I did check the fluid in the trans and it's a bit below the lowest hole on the stick. I'll fill it up tonight, but I can't believe that's gonna fix the problem. Thanks for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 19, 2006 Author Share Posted August 19, 2006 Ok, it turns out that the driver side stub axle has pulled out of the tranny. I guess the clip inside the tranny broke, but it's not on the stub or in the diff that I can feel. Of course I got this all figured out at 12:45 this afternoon and the dealer closes at 12 Upon looking at the stub axle, it looks like there's supposed to be a small section of splines on the very end(tranny side), then a groove(for the clip?). But that small section on the end is worn flat. So if there is supposed to be splines there, looks like I need a new clip and a driver side stub axle. Can you get the clip at Autozone, etc or is it a dealer only option? Anyone have a good stub axle out of a 95 4EAT they would like to sell? I hate to see what a dealer will charge for one:rolleyes: Thanks for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 Glad you found the problem. When you drained the diff fluid (which I assume that you did), how did the oil look and how much steel debris was stuck to the drain plug magnet? Basically, I wonder if the PO knew of this problem and had already removed clip (and stub debris) and changed oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 19, 2006 Author Share Posted August 19, 2006 The oil was a goldish/brown which is how I've always seen it. THe plug had mostly very fine, greyish debris stuck to it as well as right inside the hole. Not bad and nothing solid like part of the clip or anything. Both cv's have NAPA stickers on them, but I don't think anything could've been done to knock the clip off?? Who knows. I went to the parts store for the clip and no luck so I guess it's dealer only. It's still hard to believe that because one cv wasn't hooked up, all 3 other ones wouldn't engage?!?! I hope this fixes it. Any stub axles out there anyone? Oh yeah, I got the car from the junkyard. Someone brought it in saying it wouldn't move and I got it cheap with a clean title before he junked it. So I don't think previous owner was being dishonest. Good idea, though. Glad you found the problem. When you drained the diff fluid (which I assume that you did), how did the oil look and how much steel debris was stuck to the drain plug magnet? Basically, I wonder if the PO knew of this problem and had already removed clip (and stub debris) and changed oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 My guess (the crystal ball is clearing! ) is that some PO changed the axles (since NAPA stickers are still visible) and yanked the stub axle with the drive axle. Clip popped off either inside or fell off/removed while stub was outside. Stub was reinstalled sans clip, and stub started working its way outward until inner edge was ground off. Hey, am I psycho or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 21, 2006 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 Great thinking...yeah, definitely psychic, if nothing else. Drained the tranny, changed the oil and put new front brakes on yesterday. Now, to find the stub axle. I guess I'll list in the parts wanted section. Thanks for all the help. I'm still a little concerned why if one axle is out, the three others don't move:confused: I'll update once I get the stub, hopefully that fixes everything. My guess (the crystal ball is clearing! ) is that some PO changed the axles (since NAPA stickers are still visible) and yanked the stub axle with the drive axle. Clip popped off either inside or fell off/removed while stub was outside. Stub was reinstalled sans clip, and stub started working its way outward until inner edge was ground off. Hey, am I psycho or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 30, 2006 Author Share Posted August 30, 2006 Well, I got a used stub from a fellow board member, got it in this past Saturday with the new 82 cent clip from Subaru and all gears engage and seems to drive great. Now that I've been starting it more now, I notice the Trans Temp light doing the flashing 16 times thing. So I guess I have a code to diagnose. I've been reading a lot about the torque bind and duty C solenoid in other posts. I took it out last night and did some tight lock to lock turns and absolutely no binding whatsoever. I came home and tried the FWD fuse and no FWD light comes on in the dash. From the other posts, it seems there's always torque bind when the duty C and/or clutch packs are the problem. The tires are the same size, it has new trans fluid and diff fluid and I pulled fuse 14 to clear the TCM code, started it with no Trans Temp light, drove it around, shut it off and restarted and the Trans Temp light was back. I'll try and get the error code from the TCM. I'm wondering if it's always in FWD or? Any ideas? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 Well, I got a used stub from a fellow board member, got it in this past Saturday with the new 82 cent clip from Subaru and all gears engage and seems to drive great. Now that I've been starting it more now, I notice the Trans Temp light doing the flashing 16 times thing. So I guess I have a code to diagnose. I've been reading a lot about the torque bind and duty C solenoid in other posts. I took it out last night and did some tight lock to lock turns and absolutely no binding whatsoever. I came home and tried the FWD fuse and no FWD light comes on in the dash. From the other posts, it seems there's always torque bind when the duty C and/or clutch packs are the problem. The tires are the same size, it has new trans fluid and diff fluid and I pulled fuse 14 to clear the TCM code, started it with no Trans Temp light, drove it around, shut it off and restarted and the Trans Temp light was back. I'll try and get the error code from the TCM. I'm wondering if it's always in FWD or? Any ideas? Thanks It's strange that the FWD light didn't come on with the fuse in place. Do all of the lights in your instrument cluster work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 .... and I pulled fuse 14 to clear the TCM code, started it with no Trans Temp light, drove it around, shut it off and restarted and the Trans Temp light was back. I'll try and get the error code from the TCM. I'm wondering if it's always in FWD or? Any ideas? Thanks i have a CEL for "misfire #4" i bought plugs and wires, they go in tomorrow. is there a fuse i can pull to clear clear the CEL on my 97 obw or do i still need to disconnect thje battery?? thanlks john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 Yep, all other dash lights work. I've seen where other people have said their FWD light is sporadic or comes on when cold then goes out when warmed up, but mine never comes on. No one has seen this before? It's strange that the FWD light didn't come on with the fuse in place. Do all of the lights in your instrument cluster work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 Not that I know of...I would just pull the battery cable off for at least a minute and go from there. i have a CEL for "misfire #4" i bought plugs and wires, they go in tomorrow. is there a fuse i can pull to clear clear the CEL on my 97 obw or do i still need to disconnect thje battery?? thanlks john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 30 seconds to clear codes, an hour to reste the computer, most say do it over night. I wouldnt be surprised if you need a coil. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89hatch Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 Well since I'm not getting any responses, I guess I'm in uncharted territory with this odd problem. I'm gonna try to pull the code from the TCU tonight and then update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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