Andyjo Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 So i got to thinking earlier (yeah.. scary.. i know..) everyone gets all scared about towing vehicles with AWD... and well, as we all know, the 4eat when the duty C solenoid has no voltage/signal, it locks up the clutch pack... and when you turn off your car.. there's no voltage. SO.. what if you turned on the car, so you have the TCU running, and you dump the car into neutral? That shouldn't lock up the clutch pack.. and i'm guessing wouldn't mess up the tranny like so many people talk about.... yeah.. the car would have to be running... but it could work maybe i'm not planning on towing mine anywhere, just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 When the ignition is off, there is no voltage/signal to the Duty-C, but there is also no fluid pressure to engage the clutch pack. The issue when the engine/ignition is off is that there is no fluid flow around the clutch plates and bearings, so no/little cooling and lubrication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutthpaw Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 When the ignition is off, there is no voltage/signal to the Duty-C, but there is also no fluid pressure to engage the clutch pack. The issue when the engine/ignition is off is that there is no fluid flow around the clutch plates and bearings, so no/little cooling and lubrication. ever tried those drive shaft disconnects that you can get for towing vehicles behind RV's check camping world website, i know they sell them. But Subaru's dont break right? so they would not need to be towed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 If the car has a 4EAT, it has to have all 4 wheels off the ground. No if's, and's, or but's. Unless you physically remove the transmission from the car or remove all 4 half shafts, it does not get towed on the ground - you will fry the parts inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Hmm...interesting question. I was all ready to think it was a go except that as Northwest pointed out even if the duty c does activate, there's still no fluid pressure to actually release the clutches. If subaru's didn't break, there wouldn't be a need for an FWD fuse. There was just a post where someone bought a used suby and towed it home all 4 on the ground and basically fried the trans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 ... there's still no fluid pressure to actually release the clutches... The fluid pressure engages the clutchpack... but, the problem is that the disks and plates in the clutch pack will still drag against each other Without a flow of ATF over them, they will fry after a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Ah yes northwet that does make more sense, so when the duty c is not energized, there is full pressure to the clutches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Ah yes northwet that does make more sense, so when the duty c is not energized, there is full pressure to the clutches? As long as the engine is running and the tranny's fluid pump is pumping and the duty-A solenoid is not energized... yes. (Duty-A can reduce pressure from "full"... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 So i got to thinking earlier (yeah.. scary.. i know..) everyone gets all scared about towing vehicles with AWD... and well, as we all know, the 4eat when the duty C solenoid has no voltage/signal, it locks up the clutch pack... and when you turn off your car.. there's no voltage. SO.. what if you turned on the car, so you have the TCU running, and you dump the car into neutral? That shouldn't lock up the clutch pack.. and i'm guessing wouldn't mess up the tranny like so many people talk about.... yeah.. the car would have to be running... but it could work maybe i'm not planning on towing mine anywhere, just wondering. i'd take it a step further and instal the FWD fuse, engine running, a/t in neutral, front wheels on car dolly. now you have trans lubrication, but the rear whells are free to roll, just like in FWD. there is no damage then. but here's the problem. the only time you tow a car is when the engine doesn't run or the tranny does'nt work. so what are the chances you could ever take advantage of this setup.???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Don't the EJ cars have a two-piece driveshaft like the EA's? If so, you can just remove the rear piece and tow it with a dolley. I do that all the time with EA-series Subes. It takes five minutes tops to take the shaft out or install it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjo Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 i'm not actually going to go towing it around.. i was just wondering.. because it sort of makes sense... but yeah, i suppose the FWD fuse would be a good precaution too. i thought the major problem w/ towing the AWD cars is that the clutchpack is locked up when the car is off. so if you turn it on, and put it in FWD (w/ the fuse) and throw it in neutral.. theoretically that clutch pack should be fully disengaged, and the ATF pump will be sending fluid through the tranny, for cooling & lubrication. What else would you fry....? Open diff's don't care if you tow them.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 If the car has a 4EAT, it has to have all 4 wheels off the ground. No if's, and's, or but's. Unless you physically remove the transmission from the car or remove all 4 half shafts, it does not get towed on the ground - you will fry the parts inside. Yeah thats a total lie right there. With any AWD Subaru, you can pull the rear section of the 2 piece driveline and put it on a tow dolly, if you can't use a flatbed trailer. As far as towing it with 4 wheels on the ground, don't really see why it would be a problem if the car was in neutral and the steering unlocked. With the way the powerflow through the transmission works, there shouldn't be a problem. Oh and the only time the pump in the transmission spins, is when the engine is spinning or running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to go around testing whether you can pull the shaft and just pull it around like that. I'm sure the manual says don't tow it unless all 4 wheels are off the ground for a reason.... Theoretically, that could work, but I certainly don't want to be the one who tests it and fries my rear diff. I'll be towing with all 4 off the ground - because I like my car the way it is. Absolutely not with 4 wheels on the ground and in neutral. You will fry a transmission like that, guaranteed. The clutch packs are sensitive pieces of equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 i've towed dozens of times on a dolly by removing the driveshaft. the only thing turning is the wheels and rear diff. the transmission doesn't even spin since the driveshaft is removed, it can't. it just sits there. if the transmission can break with the driveshaft removed on a tow dolly, then it can break while sitting in your driveway, so i hope you're parking it on a flatbed at night! (just a joke!) rear diffs are unaffected. if a rear diff was affected by towing, then tow dollys would have never been made. also...when towing, both rear wheels are going forward. the same as when you're driving. disconnect the driveshaft and tow away. i'm almost positive the manuals say to disconnect the driveshaft before towing. don't scare the non-knowledgeable, this is how numerous threads and misinformation get propogated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 subaru says you can tow their AWD manual trans with all 4 on the ground: http://www.subaru.com/owners/carcaretips/index.jsp?pageid=towing&navid=TOWING_A_SUBARU i'd decline on doing it with an AWD. with the car on and in neutral though it wouldn't be any different then coasting down a hill in neutral (which probably isn't recommended), but wouldn't hurt for a short distance. like Manarius said early...who wants to find out how long, how fast you have to go before or if it does cause issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beauregaardhooligan Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 So what I'm getting is the only way to tow a non-running automatic is all 4 off the ground, or pull the driveshaft and put the front on a dolly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 So what I'm getting is the only way to tow a non-running automatic is all 4 off the ground, or pull the driveshaft and put the front on a dolly? you got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 let me clarify "the only way to tow an AWD auto Subaru without risking damage"...yes. i do it all the time. when i settle on this new house im' buying a flat bed trailer. tow dollys are annoying anyway, can't use them for anything else. at least a flat trailer is multi-purpose, wish i would have thought about that ahead of time. flat trailer rentals aren't that bad if you want to try that route. driveshafts can be annoying to drop. i've done enough to know that rusted bolts are not your friend. and you can't get to them all at one time. so it's remove one or two (there are 4 total)...then jack car up so you can rotate by hand or roll car and hope you don't go to far...gets annoying to try and get them all out. not terribly difficult, but annoying. rain, time constraints, darkness, wet ground, limited space, rusted bolts can make things ugly. i've had some where i could not get the bolts off...the nuts would just round off. REALLY ANNOYING. the longer the vehicle has been sitting, the more likely rust may be an issue. go flatbed anytime you have the opportunity, but a dolly works as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 let me clarify "the only way to tow an AWD auto Subaru without risking damage"...yes. i do it all the time. go flatbed anytime you have the opportunity, but a dolly works as well. i just did a dolly for the first time. guess what, YOU CAN'T BACK UP!!!!!!! never even occoured to me untill i saw it written on the trailer tonge. and even then i didn't believe it. but it's true. you can't back up. because the car flexes on the trailer, it won't back up like a regular trailer. and if you go too far it will jack your car into the dolly. if everything is absolutely straight, you can back up a little, imean a very little. so don't bet on it. one good thing about a dolly, you can jack up the front of the car, and work the dolly under the wheels chain it to the tounge, and then lower the tounge. for a car that doesn't run it works great. of course, a winch would be easier. but then uhaul doesn't rent winches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 ...if a rear diff was affected by towing, then tow dollys would have never been made... IIRC, the tow dolly was actually designed/made popular by FWD cars that didn't have to worry about any rear drive components. And, they were marketed to RV'rs. BUT... they work just fine with RWD with driveshaft disconnected. I do prefer flat-beds, though. I have jack-knifed a tow dolly a couple of times during low-speed manuevers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibumm100 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Well guys.....I'll let you know how far you can flat tow a 4EAT......just did it last Thurday when the car died from the timing belt problem. Flat towed it about 15 miles at a top speed of about 35 MPH. Key on in neutral. When I get it running, I'll let you know if it rolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keltik Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Im looking forward to the outcome of this one. Personally i think the short distance towing will drastically reduce the life of your transmission but it will still work. We'll know soon enough. (Ive done the same with a non-subaru auto awd vehicle and it lived to see another hard thrashing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibumm100 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 The part that sucks is that my buddy that helped me tow it home has a flatbed trailer. We talked about it and said "Nah, it's too much trouble to get the trailer out and come-a-long it up on the bed, let's just tow it." I was vaguely aware about the flat-towing no-no but it wasn't in my thoughts at the time. I was just concerned about getting it home w/o getting a ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibumm100 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Car is back together and I've been running it around for about a week checking everything out. I changed the tranny input shaft seal while I had the engine out for the timing belt/valve job. Flat towing seems to have done little or no damage. The transmission works as well as it ever did. It's quiet and shifts fine. I checked it for torque bind.....none. I would not recommend flat towing and won't do it again but, at least for now, it doesn't seem to have caused any serious damage. I'll let you know in 60,000 miles or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 The owners manual says that flat towing the car w/ 4 wheels on the ground and an auto tranny is fine as long as you have the FWD fuse in, the ignition on or in acc. and the transmission in neutral. Don't tow farther than 30 miles, at under 20mph. Manual trannys can be towed all day as long as they're in neutral. Auto trannys can be towed with the front wheels in the air as long as the FWD fuse is in, AND the ignition is on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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