idosubaru Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 if you have access to an OBDII scanner, check the codes just for giggles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 17, 2007 Author Share Posted November 17, 2007 I don't have one. How much do they cost, for future reference? Are the connectors standard for this device? It seems like a good tool to have. I'll have to check if Autozone "rents" them. I'll check when I take the 1/2" drive torque wrench back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 i think they can be had for $79 or $89 for the cheap ones now. i believe you can even buy adapters and software for your computer now too, don't know how much they cost though. yes, the Subaru...and all other cars on the road for the most part, have the standard OBDII port connector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I bought my code reader at walmart. It was like $50. I saw the same one at Checker today for $79. If you get one, make sure you get one that actually erases codes. The cheapest of the cheap code readers only and literally read them. But, I don't think you're going to have any codes because the engine hasn't run yet. The only codes you might have are any old ones. The check engine light is supposed to come on with all the other dash warning lights, but it goes out once the engine is started. This is normal, even if there aren't any codes. If there's an active code, the light will flash. If there's a code but the problem that triggered it has ceased, then the light just stays on. On many vehicles, the light will go out (while engine is running) on it's own if the problem no longer exists and the car has been run for so long or has been through "x" many start up's and shut down's. I don't think going out and buying a code reader is going to help you at this point. If you want a code reader anyway, then fine, but like I said, you might be reading old codes. As far as connectors, your subi should use the standard OBDII connector. You won't need anything special for it. Some vehicles do require special code reader attachments, but not this one. You also mentioned in your other post that you cleaned with TB with cleaner. Can you describe what you did? Did you spray cleaner in there and wipe it out, or did you spray onto a rag and wipe it out? I haven't had any TPS problems with my cars and haven't needed to clean out the TB, but it's always possible that something could have happened. Have you done any testing to the TPS or researched any previous posts regarding TPS's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 the older subaru's will give a code without the engine ever running, i guess the EJ series OBDII stuff is different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 17, 2007 Author Share Posted November 17, 2007 When I had the intake manifold off, I sprayed gum-out carb cleaner on the back side of the plate and in the throttle bore to clean out the varnish type deposits that seemed like normal build up. I then wiped it out with a rag. Nothing super aggressive. Just as far as I could reach with the rag over my finger. I did a little on the injector ends, too, being careful of the injectors. Again, I wiped out with a rag, being carefull of the injectors. I didn't get any spray on them or spray them directly. The area directly around them was clean. I guess I will need to check the TPS? and all other sensors. There is an engine not starting checklist in the 97 OEM manual. I guess I should start going down the list... I'm trying to get over a wicked cough today that is being passed around my daughter's pre-school by all those little incubators of germs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomson1355 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 When you return the Torque wrench consider getting a vacuum guage to check your cranking vacuum. It may tell you something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 the older subaru's will give a code without the engine ever running, i guess the EJ series OBDII stuff is different? Well, what I mean is, it shouldn't generate a new code becuase the engine hasn't even started yet. It would give a code if there was a code already in memory from the last time the engine ran, but that would have to mean that he had a check engine light on the last time he actually drove the car and the engine was running. In order to delete codes when the check engine light has been on (with engine running), you plug the code reader in, put the key and and turn it to "accessory on", read the codes, and delete them. You are not supposed to start the engine when reading or deleting codes. If you are considering getting a code reader for this particular project but don't want to spend the money, you might want to see if you can borrow a code reader from a parts store. Our Checker stores let you rent tools for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Well, what I mean is, it shouldn't generate a new code becuase the engine hasn't even started yet. i knew that's what you meant, i was wondering if you are sure this is absolutely true since the older ones are not like this. on those, the ECU can still sense and show proper codes on older subaru's if the ECU is getting bad input from something...even if the engine has never actually ran (motor swap, etc). what is bizarre is that if what you are saying is true it would mean that the ECU can never show a code for a non-start condition...since the engine never actually "ran" on that incident, the computer doesn't know if the engine was swapped, if the car sat overnight or for 6 months (unless it discharges of course). maybe the electrical system being discharged has something to do with it? anyway, if this is true then it can't ever show a code for a non-start condition, that sounds weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Some sensors take time to warm up, like O2 sensors with heaters built into them. Others take a few revolutions to read all the data. Others need something to flow over them. or for things to get pressurized. In a crank situation, sesnors have not had time to start functioning, or have no data to read. The best they can do is tell you if a sensor is low or high (shorted or open), but even then, the CEL won't come on till the car is started. In order to store a code, the sensor has to fail X number of times in X amount of time. This is done to avoid false failures. When the car is restarted, the previous codes (depending on what they were) may be erased. Not all codes are stored between starts. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickensheets Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 The suspense is killing me. I'm praying for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 25, 2007 Author Share Posted November 25, 2007 OK, in case you thought I'd gotten it started...... After a few days rest with holiday to get over the crud.... TPS seems to be OK? I got a 5.12 reference voltage and a voltage range from .39 dcv closed to 4.26. dcv open idle air control has battery voltage in the center lead of the harness and measures 8.7 and 8.9 ohms across 1-2 and 2-3. the coolant temp. sensor measures 4.85k ohms which seems to be proper in regard to the ambient temperature of ~ 50 degrees according to the chart in Haynes. I have been all over this engine double checking connections. I replaced the plastic "y" connector in the PVC/oil separator hose. Any ideas of what I should check next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 OK, in case you thought I'd gotten it started...... After a few days rest with holiday to get over the crud.... TPS seems to be OK? I got a 5.12 reference voltage and a voltage range from .39 dcv closed to 4.26. dcv open idle air control has battery voltage in the center lead of the harness and measures 8.7 and 8.9 ohms across 1-2 and 2-3. the coolant temp. sensor measures 4.85k ohms which seems to be proper in regard to the ambient temperature of ~ 50 degrees according to the chart in Haynes. I have been all over this engine double checking connections. Any ideas of what I should check next? I did not have time to read all 4 pages so my apology if covered already what about your gas? Is it old? Have you tried starting fluid into each spark plug hole and see if she fires over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 25, 2007 Author Share Posted November 25, 2007 Hello, the car was not running for 3 weeks while I did the head gasket job. The gas should be good. It was running before. The plugs are wet when I pull them. No, I haven't tried starting fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomson1355 Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Sublute, just double-checking. When you put the timing belt on: The intake cam sprockets had their slash marks at the top of their rotation, and the exhaust cam sprockets had their slash marks at the outside of their rotation, 90 degrees from the top. And the single slash mark on the BACK of the crank sprocket, NOT the arrow on the front, was at the top of its rotation. Yes? I'm thinking that it may be possible to have spark, compression and fuel, just not at the right time, and there is often some confusion about that danged arrow on the front of the crank sprocket. Grasping at straws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 26, 2007 Author Share Posted November 26, 2007 Hello, Yes, I'm pretty sure the timing belt is right on. I took it off and put it on a second time (last thread...) just to make sure. I'm going to check the cam shaft sensor again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 Well, I hope you folks haven't given up on me. I checked the cam sensor and it blipped and then I checked the timing while cranking the engine. I was reading 30 deg. before TDC?? Is that off? I checked with the light on all four wires and got flashes. Anyway, the ignition circuit seems to be working.?? Should I be checking the belt to see if it has skipped some teeth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Well, I hope you folks haven't given up on me. I checked the cam sensor and it blipped and then I checked the timing while cranking the engine. I was reading 30 deg. before TDC?? Is that off? I checked with the light on all four wires and got flashes. Should I be checking the belt to see if it has skipped some teeth? did you get (with the AC setting) blip blip blip blip blip blip ? cam shaft sensor should be blip blip blip blip blip blip blip The crankshaft is supposed to be 10 degrees before TDC. The crank controls spark. The cam controls fuel. What did you use as timing marks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 It seemed like it was at 20 BTDC then went to 30? I'd have to double check that. Obviously that is off. I'm using the notch on the pulley. It has been highlighted in white by someone... I was trying to notice a pattern in the blips and count them and establish the patterns, but cranking by hand is too slow and it seems like by remote switch it was too fast... This last time I was using an analog meter on 2.5V range which is the lowest. I put an oscilliscope on it but couldn't get it on a sweep so I could look at the pattern. My ineptitude with a scope... either it was too fast a sweep or too slow. I have an old scope and not that much experience with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 Hello. I took the t-belt covers off and connected the crank and cam shaft sensors to the 'sillyscope. I observed each blip as each trigger point passed the sensor. All seems OK. I'm going to rotated the t-belt around to see if the marks line up perfectly. I may be able to do this shortly. I'm on daughter duty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Are you able to get photos of anything? It might help if we can see what things look like, particularly the timing belt and associated pulley positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 If it was running before the work was done..................chances are you do not have a bad sensor, unless something was done to damage them while the work was being performed. It takes three things to make an engine run. Compression, fuel and spark. Sounds like you have fuel and spark. Check compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 OK, I rotated the engine to make the timing marks on the crank shaft and 4 cams line up with the corresponding case marks. It took a while to get it there. I used a remote switch, rotating with the starter. When all these marks on the crank and 4 cams are lined up, all the belt marks are one tooth further clockwise... All marks on the belt are in proper position, just one tooth past. That should be OK. So, in other words, if I took the timing belt off and left althe crank and cams in the same position and just moved the t-belt back one tooth, it would be just the same. I'll take photo's and post. I checked compression and all the numbers are good. Compression- #1-175 #3-165 #2-173 #4-I just couldn't get the plug out on the night I was doing it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 Here are pics. the drivers side in and ex cam alignment is not very clear, but the double hash marks line up perfectly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sublute Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 So, the thing that is off so far is the timing which seems to be 10-20 degrees ahead. This was done with the ignition on and a remote switch turning the engine. What could be the cause of this? Timing belt on correctly... The crank and cam sensors are blipping, the temp sensor shows the proper resistance for ambient temp ~ 50 degrees ---4.85k ohms TPS seems to be OK? I got a 5.12 reference voltage and a voltage range from .39 dcv closed to 4.26. dcv open. idle air control has battery voltage in the center lead of the harness and measures 8.7 and 8.9 ohms across 1-2 and 2-3. measurements on the coil pack are nominal and I get spark on plugs when removed. plugs are wet when I remove them, I hear the injectors clicking. I've looked at every possible connection. I could take the valve covers off and make sure I got the proper cams in place. I was very careful to put them in their proper place I don't think I screwed that up (I didn't take photos before putting the covers on...), but I'm grasping at straws. What else can I check. MAF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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