hatchsub Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 It seems that this day in age its getting harder and harder to find someone to do trustworthy work on your car. It was not long ago that i brought my subaru into the shop for some very loud brake noise from the rear right drum. They did a brake inspection and said that everything was fine and that it probably just hit a metallic part of the pad. I thought to myself BS but oh well at least they looked at everything. Mind you this is the same shop that did the brake work on my friends Dodge Mirada a month later and he lost all brakes on the way back to Maine from Connecticut. When i got home i looked into the noise myself by consulting my HTKYSA manual. I realized that the drums probably needed adjustment after reading it and after backwoodsboy mentioning it as a possible cause. So i adjusted them. They were way off from what they should have been. Not only does my car stop on a dime but it doesnt make any brake noise anymore. Everyone check their rear drum adjusters on EA81s!! Next up is a shop that ive gone to for years and have had good luck with. I guess everyone is getting greedy these days. It used to be that this shop would let me do half the work and not charge me for borrowing one of their younger workers for an hour or so to do a tire mounting and balancing. I swapped tires onto my new Enkeis and had the kid balance them then i bolted them back on the car myself and they STILL charged me 75 dollars after i had left thinking i was all taken care of. They mailed the bill to our house. What gives? Next up is my GFs car. She brought it to be worked on and and had to have the rear springs replaced. Well now shes got a clunk in the rear that she didnt have before and I and a friend think its because they didnt seat the new springs properly. The only good shop ive found is a corvette specific place that rewired my camaro. They were a bit pricy but they took their time and did stuff that other shops would never do. Sorry i just had to vent. Im getting sick and tired of this. Are there now good mechanics left? Where did all the shadtree mechanics that would give you a good deal and not try to rip you off go? I do most of my work on my cars myself but when it comes time to have someone else do the work for me i dont have options. I have to do it myself or have someone half rump roast it. Mods if this is in the wrong forum i appoligize ahead of time. I intended for it to be subaru related but it got off topic so feel free to move it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Well - there's many factors. 1. Automotive is very competitive. Dealerships make a lot of money off service, and they pay a correspondingly better wage. They have better training programs, hire/train more knowledgable people, and have better equipment to perform the work. 2. "Shops" (non dealerships) make the bulk of their money on "services" - by which I mean oil changes, brake work, timing belts, shock/strut replacement, ect. Stuff that is in the maintenance schedule of the vehicle. Not outright repair of "broken" things. The collective experience (if there is much) is usually clustered around that type of knowledge. Not how to diagnose and repair "problems" but rather how to follow a procedure and change wear item parts on an otherwise correctly functioning machine. 3. Knowledge of older vehicles really isn't out there to any great extent. It's not marketable, and people that really know this stuff are either retired, have moved into management, or have changed industries..... which brings me to... 4. The "old timers" that know this stuff got tired of the automotive industry long, long ago. It's competitive, it's extremely fickle, the pay is usually flat rate (more on this in a minute), and the customers are often a horror story all to themselves. Take for example a story from my co-worker that spent 20 years at a Pontiac dealership: One day his service manager pulled a customer's car around to the shop with the customer standing nearby. He jumped out and closed the door - unfortunately locking the keys inside. He asked my friend to open the car "right away" as the customer was waiting. My friend leaned close and sugested he take the customer away and tell him it would be a few minutes. His manager, not understanding the folly in allowing the customer to see his car being "broken into", recoiled at the sugestion and further indicated that he wanted it done "NOW". My friend offered to his manager that this customer was "your problem", grabbed his slim-jim, and popped the door open in approximately 1.5 seconds. You can imagine the horror on the customers face..... 5. Flat rate pay engenders a lack of concern for quality and a sense of urgency in finishing the job and moving to the next. When you pay people based on their speed rather than their experience, knowledge, and abilities you take away their willingness to do things the right way. Flat rate workers are always finding quicker, cheaper ways of doing things - usually at some cost in the quality of the job. That's a little summation of my feelings about the autmotive service industry anyway. I am lucky to have avoided it and now I work with a lot of very knowledgeable guys that got out of that industry for all of the reasons I went over. As with a lot of things in life - if you want it done right do it yourself. That applies specifically to older automobiles. Even the dealerships have a hard time with them. I like to go and talk with the old-time parts guys and service managers that have seen the stuff, but the people doing the actual work are more likely to break things than to fix them. There is no money in doing work on older cars - the flat rate scale isn't enough to allow them to both learn/be trained on something they have never touched before, and still get the job done in a reasonable amount of time. 9 times out of 10 taking jobs on outdated equipment like that spells a money losing proposition for the shop. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Too bad you aren't closer, I do the kind of work you are looking for. It's tough trying to make a living as a flat rate mechanic, you have to cut corners and pick and choose easy work to make money. I did all that for a long time. I finally gave up and dropped out of the rat race and started working on my own. Now I just do the work I enjoy (like the 72 GL I'm doing now) take my time and do things right. I just charge enough to pay my bills, life is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4WDFrenzy Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 GD hit this one right on the head(and with a whole lot of detail I might add)! Most shops are run from the position of, "how many cars can we get through here in a workday," not how can we give the customer quality work on their car, no matter the age. It's more quantity instead of quality. GD is right, all of the old school mechanics have either retired, moved to management, or just gotten away from the automotive industry completely. And the sad part is, is that now with the "gas crunch" and all, and people resurrecting older vehicles because of better fuel economy, we need those old school mechanics more than ever. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I havent taken my cars to garages in years ..prior to the Impreza cause ..I dont trust them..seen too much first hand . And even the dealers can be the most uneducated people out there..and they done even care ..Case in point the damage done to my dash on a simple install of an aux port..Dealer ate $150 part plus the labor to put it in cause one of the noobs didnt have a clue what he was doing. I think they are all crooks. I would rather pay someone like subaru360 to do the work..cause people like him are getting 100% of the money to support thier families..and they are more likely to take thier time and do it right..and be honest about any problems they find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Well - there's many factors. 1. Automotive is very competitive. Dealerships make a lot of money off service, and they pay a correspondingly better wage. They have better training programs, hire/train more knowledgable people, and have better equipment to perform the work. from a former salesman at a dealership, i wouldn't even trust most dealers to touch my car anymore. that extra money that the dealerships make from their service dept, that used to go to training and hiring the right folks is now being used to keep dealerships afloat . . . or to maintain the profits lining the owner's pockets at the same level they used to be. i watched the revolving door of "newbs" in the shops, they'd last for a few weeks, really screw something up royally because they hadn't been trained otherwise (i had a customer's car catch fire because one of the "techs" left a gas soaked rag in the engine bay, heard stories about another one who filled a customer's car with oil until it started coming back out the filler hole ) and they'd be fired. all the old timers, as has been mentioned, became frustrated with the new politics of each new service manager, and left- or complained so much, they got fired too . . . granted, i saw much more of this at the chrysler/dodge lot i worked for than at the honda lot that i was at last . . . hopefully subaru is more like the latter :-\ chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukiru Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 the people I have had good experiences with I hear horror stories about. working at a gas station you hear alot of stuff and see alot of cars.. in the past month or so I have fixed a half dozen silly little problems for people and got them back on their merry way. from changing a tire for a college girl to bending the prongs on a broken cam sensor wire for a mid forties gentleman to hole him over till he got a new connector. (he was trying to hold it on with rubber bands) I am amazed all the time by how little people know about the thing they depend on daily.. and I am NOTHING compared to most of you on this site and the XT board. (some of y'all are brilliant) If I wasn't in college and working full time I'd take on some shade tree stuff. people are getting ripped by shops daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Some of the best mechanics I've met were either highly trained, ASE dealer service technicians, or an independant working out of his own garage at his house. A good mechanic looks at all the possibilities before "fixing" the problem. Not just jumping on the first thing he thinks it is. A lesson I have to learn again from time to time...... Most of these shops are pressed for time too, the mechanics are being rode hard by management to get the car in and out fast so they can get another one in. More profit that way. That shop that sent you a bill, they just didn't have the courage to tell you to your face that they don't want you doing that anymore. Sounds like a woman made that decision, I only say that because I worked for a woman that did that kind of thing all the time, and when the person came in to confront her about it, they were told that she wasn't here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 No independent shops that I've found around here are trustworthy, and neither are most of the dealers. I still go with the dealer on my Ford 7.3 diesel. Getting a dealer to make good on something they screwed up is a whole lot easier than trying to get an independent to do so. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newsoobdude Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I bought my 98 Outback used from a Subaru Dealership here in NorCal and after having it about 2 weeks I was driving home one time and could not shift from 3rd to 4th (I could to 5th though but engine didn't like the hill). Took the car back to the dealer and told the service dept. about it and told them to "wring her out" (as I was doing) and see what they said. My clutch was acting funny to and when I bought it the shop was trying to figure out a "clutch issue". Well, I got my car back the next day (I did drop it for the night) and they said it was normal, everything was fine:confused: . Then, a couple months later on another site I'm reading about some people with my car having the same problem and everything and guess what? There was a dealer notice about it that had been out for a LONG WHILE and it's the Clutch Slave and/ or Master being faulty:mad: . What did the dealership say you ask? "Bring it in and we can fix it but we'll charge you for it". WHAT!?!?! I've had the car for less than 6 months and had to replace the HGs after 3 weeks of ownership and now they want me to pay MORE money to fix something that was wrong before I bought the car? FORGETIT!!! NEVER going to a dealership again. The shop that fixed my HGs, my engine STILL leaks oil from the rear somewhere even though they replaced all the seals and everything but they will charge me to pull the engine and see where it's leaking from and whether it's something they did or didn't do. FORGETIT!!! My friend and I are going to replace my clutch (and slave) and see if we can find the leak and fix it ourselves. Went to get my 86 smogged from a repair shop and it wouldn't pass the visual because I had removed the AC lines from it. WTF!?!? It also wasn't running right but they would not fix it as it's a carbed car not fuel injected and they don't work on old cars anyways, especially Subarus:mad: . Eventually took it to another smog place and it wouldn't pass because the timing was off and no they did not have time to deal with it:confused: . Took it in the next day and reminded him the timing was off so he adjusted it and guess what? Wouldn't pass cause the timing was off!!!!! His response "Oh, I guess the timing wasn't off.":mad: :mad: Guess what? He charged me AGAIN to have the car smogged AND $30 to adjust the timing:mad: :mad: . I bit my tongue, paid him and have told EVERYONE I know to NEVER go to Jacks Chevron on Sutter Hill (was too furious to say anything cause I had lost my patience with him and would have wound up arrested or something. I will NEVER take my car to anyone but my friends for ANYTHING EVER again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 The shop that fixed my HGs, my engine STILL leaks oil from the rear . Check the oil seperator plate. They always leak. It's on the back of the engine under the flywheel. Either reseal it or even better replace it with the updated metal one from Subaru, it's cheap. I do it with every HG job I do, since the engine is out anyway and they always are leaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosens Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Steve,you live near Premier Subaru,somewhat,right? Go there,get Charlie Miller the Senior Master Tech off to the side and talk to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 granted, i saw much more of this at the chrysler/dodge lot i worked for than at the honda lot that i was at last . . . hopefully subaru is more like the latter :-\ chris It's funny you mention that! I've worked for both and noticed the same thing. The guys at Honda seemed well-trained and very professional... but the guys at Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge were just shade-tree mechanics with basically no training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 It's funny you mention that! I've worked for both and noticed the same thing. The guys at Honda seemed well-trained and very professional... but the guys at Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge were just shade-tree mechanics with basically no training. yeah, heres an example: at honda, anytime someone came in with an s2000, or an NSX, there were 2 techs (out of the dozen or so that this honda dealer had) who were the only people allowed to touch these vehicles. they were specially trained and certified to work with honda's highest performance machines. at dodge/chrysler, when a viper rolled in, not only would a newb be doing your oil change, but any major service was handed out to whoever was next in the distribution of work orders. could be a newb, could be a veteran, it's like playing russian-roulette with your 70k viper (not to mention your life if you "tracked" the car after a service and someone really f'd up). there were NO specially trained "viper techs" as the info to work on the car was available to every tech on their little laptops . . . (and after the service, they'd send the car out to be washed, driven by a "lot boy" and washed with the same gravely wash rag that was just used to clean the 3500 diesel that was just in before, covered top to bottom with brake dust and road grime ) i still have nightmares chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merkatroid Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 If you want a good reason to work on your own car you should go to a ASE test center and look at the guys in the field. I wouldnt trust most of them working on my lawnmower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchsub Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 Steve,you live near Premier Subaru,somewhat,right? Go there,get Charlie Miller the Senior Master Tech off to the side and talk to him. yea paul i know about him. Good guy. But im up at Storrs and there is no one like him around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Check the oil seperator plate. They always leak. It's on the back of the engine under the flywheel. Either reseal it or even better replace it with the updated metal one from Subaru, it's cheap. I do it with every HG job I do, since the engine is out anyway and they always are leaking. They went to stamped steel. Try to find the middle aged aluminum one used if you can and use that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Well - there's many factors. 1. Automotive is very competitive. Dealerships make a lot of money off service, and they pay a correspondingly better wage. They have better training programs, hire/train more knowledgable people, and have better equipment to perform the work. 5. Flat rate pay engenders a lack of concern for quality and a sense of urgency in finishing the job and moving to the next. When you pay people based on their speed rather than their experience, knowledge, and abilities you take away their willingness to do things the right way. Flat rate workers are always finding quicker, cheaper ways of doing things - usually at some cost in the quality of the job. GD #1--ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!! On top of that Subaru technicians have to fix all of the warranty claims that come thru the dealership. When John, Jane, and Steve come in with these three problems..... 1-Wind noise from the front windows. 2-Broken cupholder 3-Fuel gauge doesnt work. Number one is almost always wear and tear and the customers fault. ALL OF US shut the doors on Subarus by pushing the glass and the full weight of the door with it. While you might consider this a design flaw its just the way its made and alot of us like it. It gives a cleaner look and when the window is down you dont have a big door frame to walk around or as much stuff to get in your way. By doing this you are trashing the window gussets. Replacment isnt a hard job you just pop the door panel off, take the mirror off, unplug a few things, etc. Takes about 20 minutes per door on average. Add some red tape of warranty paperwork, going to the parts counter, parking the car, etc and you are easily up to 30 minutes to do the drivers side one. I would guess at least, at least, one of these is covered in every dealer in the country per month. It adds up to a ton of money in parts, shipping, and labor to the techs. Subaru loses and the tech loses too because he probably gets about .4 to do that job. Thats not even a half hour to take your entire door apart. Most techs are probably coming off doing a brake job, engine work, etc. They certainly arent clean from head to toe and you want the guy to come out and work on your tan interior car, that is practically white interior and not get a grease print on it? 2-Stuff a 44 OZ LARGE soft drink from Burger (Shack) in your dash. That weighs almost 2 pounds!!! You are asking a piece of non nasa designed plastic to hold 2 pounds of liquid and you are placing it above your radio. It doesnt take a genius to see the flaw in this plan or better yet the idea of making the cup have an 8" diameter rim at the top but a 4" base so it will fit inside the cupholder that wasnt designed for it in the first place. While we broke the cupholder we also managed to spill Coke in the seat heater switch, shift interlock unit (that magic thing that knows you have your foot on the brake and its safe to go from Park to other gears) so that later on you can have a mysterious problem with a wiring device that is your fault for spilling crap in your car. (But the human mind thinks, damn this car first the flimsy cupholder breaks and then only a month later my butt warmer wont turn off and my radio wont tune to anything but the honky tonk station cuz my dumb ex rode with me and changed the radio.....) The fuel gauge doesnt work. Well one out of 3 that are not actually your fault is a good start. Oh but lets ask the tech to figure out why in 15 minutes, order the part, and then you can come back and get your car fixed in a week. Why? Because the budget doesnt allow the dealer to stock the part that is actually the fault of the automaker because the dealer is stocking a bunch of wear parts that the customers break by doing dumb things. As for speed. It does pay to be fast. It also allows the tech to do the things that dont require a bunch of detail quickly but get to the picky stuff, pay attention, fix it, and get the car put back together quickly. On top of that for the most part techs are smart about their shortcuts meaning sometimes they sneak their hand thru a narrow place instead of taking 30 screws out of something like the book says to do. Smarter, not harder, still applies. Remember these guys have multiple tool truck accounts, laundry service charges, ASE certification testing fees, AC cert fees, and on top of that many are paying back student loans for auto school or maybe even college itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Next up is a shop that ive gone to for years and have had good luck with. I guess everyone is getting greedy these days. It used to be that this shop would let me do half the work and not charge me for borrowing one of their younger workers for an hour or so to do a tire mounting and balancing. I swapped tires onto my new Enkeis and had the kid balance them then i bolted them back on the car myself and they STILL charged me 75 dollars after i had left thinking i was all taken care of. They mailed the bill to our house. What gives? Try looking at it from their side. Normally, somebody comes in for a mount and balance and the customer stays out of the way, doesnt second guess your work and wants to pay you what you are worth. They have to pay that worker you borrowed for an hour and they have to pay for the floor jacks, tire wheel weights, ballancer machine and maint on it, etc. They mailed the bill to your house maybe because you didnt offer to pay? Or maybe because you were more of a liability by helping than you were help? It sounds mean but sometimes the customer tries to be helpful but is more in the way than anything. If you trust them to do the job let them do the job and be sure to pay them for their time so they will continue to do good work. As for manual brake adjusters on an 84 or older Subaru...thats half the reason I convert my cars to disc rear brakes. I hate those adjusters, they like to snap off, they use a tiny square (1/4") tool that isnt common in most techs toolboxes and you have to know what you are doing to do them. Honestly, most cars from the 80's had self adjusting rear brakes, the mechanic took the drum off, saw lots of pad and put the car back together. Thats a nice favor if you ask me. They looked to see that the shoes are good and now you know they are worth trying to adjust in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newsoobdude Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 They went to stamped steel. Try to find the middle aged aluminum one used if you can and use that. Any ideas on where to look? I live in the sticks and the JYs don't have the engines by the time the car gets there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Might try an independent subaru shop or possibly Aarons in Seattle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelbteam Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 How about this happy ending? Took son's 2006 Tundra in for preventative rear brake work after I pulled the drums and saw some drum "grooving." The techs at Stewish Automotive in Salt Lake City measured everything carefully and told me nothing really needed to be replaced yet. The drums were still true and the shoes well within specs. Just charged a half hour labor, $36. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txakura Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Good Lord this thread hit a nerve in so many of the replies. There is a larger issue here in that there has been a sustained attack on skilled labor for a long time and the very labor performing the work is considered an 'expense' to be regulated. How many kids go to trade school? What is considered a 'prestigious' career? It makes me very PO'ed when I think about it, and it's everywhere, in every field. I worked for a company that hit a billion dollar milestone three years early, their response was to gradually reduce benefits over a five year period, lower the entry level wages, and create new labor categories that paid less at the top of the scale than the previous categories. I don't think I'm being OT, I'm explaining what I think is part of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperchargedRS Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Unfortunately most of the people I see working on cars are Ftards that couldn't amount to anything (druggies, dropouts and the like), think of a "beauty school" but for guys. Now once in a while you will see someone who has a passion for it, who really likes to see a project through, unfortunately these people are few a far between. This type of person also tends to overextend them self and under quote on time (take what they say and times it by 1.5). My suggestion, hunt for someone who knows their chit. One idea go to a small airports and try to find a A&P (this is a FAA licensed aircraft mechanic), they tend to be a more on their game (as the result of half azz work is grave for them). Allot of times you can get them to help out on their off time (I've had work done for 20-35 per hr). The only problem is they don't have access to lifts and automotive only tools. Just a thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Abides Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 This reminds me of my favorite story. I was driving my super nice 73 monte carlo around when all of a sudden it started grinding terribly up front. I pull into this Tires Plus and tell the tech. Hey somethings up can you throw it up on the lift and tell me whats wrong. He throws it up on the lift I go into the shop. About 2 minutes latter he calls me out and says nothings wrong everything looks ok. So we shoot the crap about my car for a bit because it just turned 30 years old and had reached CLASSIC status. He says, hey if you ever want to get rid of that thing let me know. So im driving the 10 blocks home and i keep hearing the noise over and over. I jack the car up when i get home and low and behold the front wheel is slumped over and flopping around. I had blew wheel bearings. The friggin mechanic told me nothing was wrong with my car so when the dam wheel fell off i would sell it to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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