ccrinc Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Does CCR want the engine back? I wonder if they'll inspect it to see what happened? Of course, and we pay for the return shipping as well. Emily http://www.ccrengines.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Hi, I'm a mechanic and I don't think a new motor should leak oil or smoke. My motors don't but I build my own. I obtain the parts, ensure the outwork is reliable, assemble them together and fit, start and drive them and guarantee them. The trouble here though was that the customer obtained his own engine, then had to deal with the warrenty issues. If the workshop had obtained the engine they would probably have negotiated that the removal and refit was on the engine builder. I suspect the motor came without cam covers, flywheel, pulleys etc. and that the leaks will be the mechanic that fitted the motor's fault. Also, the difference between a good motor and one that smokes is in the first twenty minutes running. If left idling for any time at the first start-up they can oil the rings and even a very careful "bedding in" drive can not fix it. New motors need to be ready to drive as soon as they start. You should be able to stand next to them and reach in the window and start them. Have a good look under the bonnet to make sure the belts etc all look good and then drop the bonnet and go for a very carefully conducted test drive. Drive moderatly for about a mile and then stop and have a look under the bonnet for anything amiss then head for a highway to bed it in. Following the recommended process of applying steady load from low/medium revs to medium high revs, then throttling off till back down to the low revs before applying a little more throttle than the time before. If this is done correctly the motor is about ninety percent run-in in the first twenty minutes. Done correctly even a bit of abuse in the form of idling for long periods should not hurt the motor. It is however worth pointing out that idling is not a good idea anyway on a new motor. In this case, I'd suspect the motor was possibly idled too long after start-up while the mechanic checked all his work or in the ensuring weeks it was idled too much. Just my opinion, but based on a lot of experiance. Avoid short journeys, avoid idling for long, drive it briskly and it will "learn" to rev freely and will last a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 (edited) UPDATE... new motor installed.... THE NIGHTMARE CONTINUES... Well now that I have the new motor installed it isn't right. Terry even rebuilt the replacement motor twice because the first leakdown test was poor. At idle it runs really rough but smoothes out at 1100 rpm. After driving around the block mechanic was so concerned he did a compression test. #1 Cylinder 130 lbs HOT - 130 lbs COLD #3 Cylinder 135 lbs HOT - 140 lbs COLD #2 Cylinder 165 lbs HOT - 170 lbs COLD #4 Cylinder 180 lbs HOT - 185 lbs COLD I immediately called CCR. After Terry consulted with Rick he suggested I check the O2 sensor, possible vacuum leak, or the computer. Too have such low compression on the right side worries me...this is a brand new motor. Not sure how you can have a good leakdown test and a poor compression test? Any thoughts? Mal Edited July 23, 2009 by SubiPilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 The trouble here though was that the customer obtained his own engine, then had to deal with the warrenty issues. If the workshop had obtained the engine they would probably have negotiated that the removal and refit was on the engine builder. I suspect the motor came without cam covers, flywheel, pulleys etc. and that the leaks will be the mechanic that fitted the motor's fault. Actually the motor was shipped directly to my mechanic and CCR is covering the costs for removal and reinstall. CCR also provides the most complete motors on the market their web site has a list of components that are included...part of the reason I decided to go with CCR over other manufacturers. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pontiac6KSTEAWD Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Check the computer? O2 sensor? Why would you even try to even check these items if the leakdown test proves lower, and imbalanced, compression? This concerns me greatly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 (edited) CCR #1 "Cylinder 1 - 17%, 15% Cylinder 3 - 15%, 12%" CCR#2 "#1 Cylinder 130 lbs HOT - 130 lbs COLD #3 Cylinder 135 lbs HOT - 140 lbs COLD" Hi, So, the 1st CCR engine failed leak down on #1 and #3. 2nd CCR engine failed compression test on #1 and #3. What are the odds? Pretty slim that the problem is in this engine. I'm thinking fuel wash on one and three. JMHO, Sincerely, Doug Hey, I may have missed it, what happened to the original engine? No, I'm not pointing my finger at anybody:). hth Edited July 23, 2009 by Quidam Add text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 CCR #1"Cylinder 1 - 17%, 15% Cylinder 3 - 15%, 12%" CCR#2 "#1 Cylinder 130 lbs HOT - 130 lbs COLD #3 Cylinder 135 lbs HOT - 140 lbs COLD" Hi, So, the 1st CCR engine failed leak down on #1 and #3. 2nd CCR engine failed compression test on #1 and #3. What are the odds? Pretty slim that the problem is in this engine. I'm thinking fuel wash on one and three. JMHO, Sincerely, Doug Hey, I may have missed it, what happened to the original engine? No, I'm not pointing my finger at anybody:). hth OK... sorry I'm not following here. What is fuel wash? Not sure what happened with the original motor, I bought this wagon with a used motor in it 100k on the motor. Judging by the oil soaked steering bushing I had to replace immediately in order to align the wheels, my mechanic thinks the original blew a headgasket. The used motor the wagon came with had intermittent low oil pressure issues from the beginning. I got 40k miles on the original/used motor that came with the wagon. I think it is also odd that the same side has issues with CCR#2. My main interest is having a wagon with a good motor I can depend on. If it's not the motor that is at issue please explain what it could be since it would be a better resolution for everyone. FYI - my mechanic is a Subaru Factory Trained Technician with 25 years experience and knows much more about these motors than I do, but I'm learning. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 Check the computer? O2 sensor? Why would you even try to even check these items if the leakdown test proves lower, and imbalanced, compression? This concerns me greatly... You and me both. Unlike CCR#1 which I could still use with the smoke, this one I've been told not to use it until the problems are diagnosed/corrected...which means I'm out a work car. I wouldn't think a new motor would be such a fragile thing...if it's so easy to ruin a new motor I'm really surprised anyone can drive a new car off the lot and not have issues. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Subipilot, I'm sorry to learn about your on going problems. First, it's great that CCR is at least picking up the additional install and de-install expenses. To my knowledge, this not the usual industry practice. With most rebulders, the CUSTOMER pays for the install and de-install charges when the rebuilt engines fails. So, at least CCR is stepping up to the plate. Rebuilt engines are not fully tested before they leave the rebulder. Rebuilt engines are "tested" after they have been installed in the customer's engine bay. The first person turning the ignition key on a newly installed rebuilt engine is the final "quality control" inspector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Hi Mal, "What is fuel wash?" That's what popped into my head, just a guess. In this case gasoline washing the oil off the cylinder walls and rings. I don't know. I do sense you're close to getting this resolved tho. Mabie the engine guy at CCR just can't do rings on 1 and 3? My sense of humor is still intact. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 I still haven't had a chance to drive it to see for myself, however my mechanic tested the things CCR suggested and no difference in how the motor runs... which is very rough at idle and smoothes out at 1100rpm. The replacement motor was actually delayed getting to me. I got an email from Amanda saying Terry was ready to ship the motor but did a leakdown test and wasn't happy with the results... so he rebuilt it again. So the original replacement had leakage issues and was supposedly redone before shipping it to me. I'm willing to bet that the leakage was on 1 and 3. My thinking is this... One bad motor... sh*t happens... Two bad motors (really 3 but only 2 were shipped) there is a problem in the process. I'm trying to keep things friendly and civil but truth be told this is now costing me money not having this vehicle on the road. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Hi Mal, A hands on second opinion is needed, IMHO. Even a third. I wouldn't focas on the problem but concentrate on the solution. If this engine is rebuilt, a little leakage is acceptable. If it's remanufactured, it better be on the money. Yea, this is got to be more than you bargined for. A headache for all involved. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 LATEST UPDATE! At idle this engine shakes the whole wagon. I have to fight the urge to keep checking for a CEL and waiting for it to die on me while at a stoplight. I don't feel comfortable even putting the break-in miles on this motor. Before they replace CCR#2 they have requested I get a vacuum test performed at a different garage... which is scheduled for Tuesday. Ideally a simple fix would be best for all involved, however, I'm not getting my hopes up since the miracle remedies suggested in the past were bunk. Will post results after the diagnosis on Tuesday. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic/se Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Thanks for taking my words completely out of context, apparently you couldn't tell when I said "you just spent" that its a scenario. And yes my engines are almost dirt and grease free. I power wash the engine bay yearly. Helps keep the engines cooler, easier to work on, and I do all my own work, except for my Tribeca, cause its under warranty. Thanks for assuming I am made of money. I am not. I can hardly wait for this tribeca to go back to the Dealer. Its breaking me. And you just defined my point entirely. You say its illegal to park a leaky car on the street, so how do you drive to work, driving your leaky car? Park your car at work, since it is illegal? My cars don't pollute, cause they don't leak. Tough titty that you cant have a leak free car isnt is. Mine sure are leak free. My 2003 legacy is leak free 120,000 miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdEyeHatch Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I agree with a crapped out injector or two. Did the motor come with intake and injectors? Could be a stuck injector washing the cylinder down. You could touch a peice of paper to the dipstick and see if the oil climbs the paper, that will tell you if you have fuel downstairs. If it climbs the paper the oil is diluted with fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 fuel wash - if an injector is leaky it can wash oil from the cylinder walls and keep the cylinders/rings from being properly lubed. this would cause elevated cylinder wear - loss of compression and using oil. Quidam mentions it because you're having issues on the same cylinders again, suggesting that there might be a common denominator. the injectors are on your intake manifold, so they likely aren't coming from CCR. you're just getting the long block from CCR with no intake manifold right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I am betting something is being done wrong on your end of the install, whatever. First off, what did the engine come with? intakes, injectrs, t-belt, etc...or are you putting the T belt on etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 fuel wash - if an injector is leaky it can wash oil from the cylinder walls and keep the cylinders/rings from being properly lubed. this would cause elevated cylinder wear - loss of compression and using oil. Quidam mentions it because you're having issues on the same cylinders again, suggesting that there might be a common denominator. the injectors are on your intake manifold, so they likely aren't coming from CCR. you're just getting the long block from CCR with no intake manifold right? OK... well first off my mechanic is a Subaru factory trained technician, 25 years experience. He considered fuel wash. There is no fuel smell, gas mileage is normal, and the oil isn't getting thinned out. This is the same manifold that was on CCR#1, but not the same problems. CCR#1 had very noisy valves, lack of power, and the rings didn't seat properly on the right side. CCR#2 compression is off 50lbs between the left and the right side causing the whole engine and wagon to rock at idle, valves sound normal, power is better but still not right. The motor smoothes out at 1100 rpm, hence the vacuum test CCR requested to have performed by a different shop (my mechanic did a visual inspection for vacuum leak). To me it would seem that if it's a common denominator then it would be similar problems? I find it interesting that you guys come up with things that neither my mechanic nor CCR come up with. I'm not doing this blind or by myself. My goal here is to have a good remanufactured motor. I have no interest in causing CCR (or myself) extra grief for any reason. I simply need a reliable remanufactured motor....period. Having this wagon out of service is costing me money daily! Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Has anyone checked the timing belt? 50lb differnce between sides would tell me that the timing is off a tooth. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Has anyone checked the timing belt? 50lb differnce between sides would tell me that the timing is off a tooth. nipper Howdy nipper, Yup good thought, the timing belt comes with the long block. My mechanic checked the timing belt, which was one of the first things he thought of when he encountered the rough idle, and the timing marks line up correctly. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) This a very interesting and informative thread for me. You can bet that SubiPilot just wants this nightmare to end. He has every incentive to have this process end with a dependable car back on the road. So far, SubiPilot has been plagued with out-of-box-failures. The rebuilt engines have not worked properly from the moment that they were installed into his car. "Bore wash" or "cyclinder wash" usually destroys an engine over a period of time. There's a limit on how much raw gas can leak into a cylinder before it misfires. What, turn the key for the first time on a new engine and thirty seconds later the engine is destroyed by "bore wash"? I think that it's more likely that the engine would hydrolock from all that raw gas before it was " instantaneously" destroyed by "bore wash". Edited August 3, 2009 by The Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Howdy nipper, Yup good thought, the timing belt comes with the long block. My mechanic checked the timing belt, which was one of the first things he thought of when he encountered the rough idle, and the timing marks line up correctly. Mal quadroople check. There is hardly a mechanic on the face of the planet that has not gotten the timing marks wrong at leats once. These hallowed halls are full of psosts of people who sewar that they checked it 5 times, just to find out they used the wrong marks, or it had shifted. If this was a bad rebuild i would expect all or 1 cylinder to be low. ALso conclusive proof would be removing the timing belt to have all the valves closed and tthen do a leakdown test. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 quadroople check. There is hardly a mechanic on the face of the planet that has not gotten the timing marks wrong at leats once. These hallowed halls are full of psosts of people who sewar that they checked it 5 times, just to find out they used the wrong marks, or it had shifted. If this was a bad rebuild i would expect all or 1 cylinder to be low. ALso conclusive proof would be removing the timing belt to have all the valves closed and tthen do a leakdown test. nipper Thanks nipper, always informative! Well first off since the timing belt comes installed with the long block from CCR I hesitate to instruct anyone to dive into what CCR has supplied me without CCR instructing me to do so. I'll have this checked again by the new shop that is doing the diagnosis for me tomorrow, however if the timing belt is found to be off it's marks, it was installed by CCR not my mechanic... just to clarify. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) I find it interesting that you guys come up with things that neither my mechanic nor CCR come up with. cool, glad that isn't the case. we're just trying to help and make sure all possibilities are being covered as best we can for not being able to touch, see, hear, or be a part of the process. Edited August 3, 2009 by grossgary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) Has anyone checked the timing belt? 50lb differnce between sides would tell me that the timing is off a tooth. nipper exactly.. thats why i mentioned T belt. And this thread is making my head hurt. you could have a igniter bad, a coil bad, but i SERIOUsLY DOUBT the engine has something wrong with it. These will run like poo with a forgotten vacuum line. If I was near you I am sure i can do a better job than who has been trying to get your car going. This just does make my head spin.... Edited August 3, 2009 by bheinen74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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