SuperSubaru
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Posts posted by SuperSubaru
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Okay here's the dilly-yo (97 OBW 5SPD 136,000 miles):
New clutch
New head gaskets
New timing belt/pulleys
New water pump
New oil pump
New cam/crank seals
New front wheel bearings
All together $4000
Prior to the maintenance I was getting a solid 25-26.5 MPG, every tank - I check every tank religiously. As all my car is used for is back-and-forth to work (90miles/day).
First two tanks after everything was replaced, 20 and 23 MPG. I was hoping to bump it up a bit with all of this, not go down!!!
Any suggestions - I have no CEL. What would cause a sudden significant drop like this? Since they had to work on all sides of the engine, it was pulled from the vehicle.
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I don't know how, but I know why, and don't like it....
Outback is now classified as a "light truck" so it doesn't have to meet the same gas mileage ratings.
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Not sure if this was the right thing to do, but my 99 impreza outback sport did the same thing. I took a screw driver and popped off the round rubber cover at the base of the passenger wiper and un-did the nut that holds it on...I adjusted the wiper a little higher up on the window...and then put on the nut "real tight" it hasnt hit in a while". I am sure there is some other "better" way to correct it out there....
My wipers simply stopped working one day in a salty-sloppy-wintery drive home. They wouldn't go up... I made it home. When I got home, I popped the wiper arm caps, tightened them up good - no worries since.
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You see then that makes the entire test moot. To be valid you change only one thing. On an I head anything helps it is so ineffecient.
Also (yes im a stickler) you needed several runs of the unmodified engines, at least three, then three of the modified engine (though i think five is the standard i dont remember) to certify the improvements as valid.
nipper
If I did one run or thirty runs, I saw a slight difference in HC and NOx, but when added together - they cancelled each other out. And the slight difference was within experimental error anyway. Had I seen something more significant, I would have ran with it and investigated further. I already know if I adjust the timing, things will change, I could have done that without cutting the head.
I took one engine one head, ran it. Removed the head (takes a little bit of time) ground a groove, and reinstalled it, and ran again. It's not worth my time to continue.
One side note - Oxygen numbers dropped measurably, so something was happening inside that was different, but at the end, it didn't matter.
I was cautiously optimistic, but now I have proof. Subaru 2.5L need head gaskets replaced often - if some of you wish to try it for yourselves, stop by your mechanic with a dremel during the operation and try for yourself.
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I did a CARB/EPA 6-mode test run 100,75,50,25,10,0% loading on the dyno.
I carved one groove opposite the spark plug on a 6HP engine, here are my before and after final results - kind of what I expected:
Baseline
6.41 HP
12.76 g/kW-hr HC+NOx
286 g/kW-hr CO
w/ Groove
6.36 HP
12.72 g/kW-hr HC+NOx
287 g/kW-hr CO
Overall, what was gained in NOx was lost in HC hence the nearly identical numbers for the additive standard. I would say both are within the experimental testing error - so no change.
And for Nipper's sake:
baseline:
Drybulb 68.0 degF
Wetbulb 63.3 degF
RH 79.2%
Groove:
DB 70.2
WB 65.7
RH 76.0%
Barometric Pressure 738.05 mm Hg (I only measured once as it doesn't change that fast on a constant overcast day).
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First off, save all receipts for everything including the tire itself. Then I would in a Dodge owners manual... it would probably have a warning about just this somewhere in it. Or contact Dodge directly and see if they can provide something in print stating that what we all know. Don't mix and match sizes.
You should be able to recover this one, I don't know how much your total bill was, but if worse comes to worse paying an attorney $500 to recover $2000-3000 might actually be worth it as well.
Just my $0.02
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if i rember correctly on a flathead, anything you do to it will increase performance. i dont think your going to have much luck, but will be interesting to see the dyno readings.
(and im a stickler for dyno reports, so you need to record ambiant temp and RH to make me happy
)nipper
Of course, humidity and temp are used in the calculations for a correction factor. So we are always comparing apples to apples - hope to have the testing done by the end of the week.
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Well I got the rubber stamp from my boss to go ahead and give it a try - it really won't cost us anything but time. But I will be gathering actual data:
-HP
-Fuel Flow (which I can't believe would change much as the jetting isn't going to change and manifold vacuum is going to be the same)
-Emissions (CO,HC,NOx,CO2,O2)
If fuel and HP don't change (which will probably be the case), the emissions will give a much better reading as to what is actually happening during combustion. If combustion efficiency goes up, HC,CO, and O2 will go down, and CO2 and NOx will go up.
I have to agree with Nipper that a 4-valve engine probably has little room for improvement in head design. But most 2-valves have substantial squish area. My test engine is an overhead 2-valve, gasoline, air-cooled, carburated single cylinder, rated at 6HP.
Here will be my test method:
Run the engine - record data
remove head - carve groove - install head
run the engine - record data
same head, same valve lash, same everything, only change will be the groove.
If there is any measurable improvement beyond normal run-to-run variances, then the experiment will continue. I will post the results.
I did look up the patent number on the USPTO website, it does exist.
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I am not stealing anything, I just want to test it to see if it works. If it does live up to the lofty claims, then I would probably forward the data to Mr. Singh and see if I could use it in production.
I brought it up here, in this forum, because with all the 2.5L headgasket issues, there is a lot of people that remove there heads. This would be a great opportunity to see if someone else wanted to try it, one their own vehicle. I would be trying it on a small air-cooled engine.
The grooves do point at the spark plug, allegedly so the turbulance created can accelerate the flame front (which starts there).
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The cutting lines in the intakes (perpendicular to flow) works, that has been done for years. They help with the vaporization and turbulance of the intake charge.
They claim the cuts in the chamber reduce tendency to detonate and engines run cooler, so theoretically you could increase compression ratio - which would make your engine more efficient. You should also be able to lean out the mixture more, since you are getting better mixing of the charge.
If I can get approval from my manager, or wait until he takes a week off (probably between Christmas and New Year's), I will run a side-by-side HP, Torque, Fuel Flow, and Emissions run. The fuel flow I don't think would change as engine vacuum isn't going to change much, so without rejetting the carb - there shouldn't be much difference.
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In my quest to improve emissions on the engines that I build at work, I came across this mechanism for improving everything (power, emissions, and economy).
I am an engineer, and most items that claim to do these things all at the same time are (for lack of a better word) - crap. The only way to do this is to improve efficiency or reduce losses (mainly friction).
This Indian inventor carves grooves in the heads and claims to greatly improve the turbulance inside the combustion chamber, thereby letting your engine to run more efficiently on the fuel you provide. My intuition says it makes sense, but he doesn't have any reputable hard numbers for comparison. The US patent office thought it was worthy enough to grant his patent application.
Since the heads we run are only about $15, I will probably try this and do a side-by-side comparison in the coming winter months (the slow period). The engine I will test is a 6HP air-cooled gasoline - if it works, I will let you all know for the next time your have to do your head gaskets, you can get out your Dremel tool as well.
There is no shortage of people that admit to it working, race engines and stock alike. He even had an article in a Popular Mechanics magazine.
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I took my cross members off, if nothing else road noise went down on the highway (which means it is cutting through the air more efficiently).
I change plugs and air filter at the same time, so I don't know what did what, but end result was +3-4MPG (it was a pretty dirty air filter). Now, nearly all highway with 97OBW 5MT 26.5 MPG religiously - tank after tank after tank - I check it every time.
You would be surprised how much a difference 2-3 lbs of air more in the tires can do as well.
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On the most basic level, a knock sensor "feels" the harsh harmonic of engine knocking. As with today's engines, not all knocking is detectable to the human ear. Then it retards the timing automatically so you don't have to worry about causing excessive damage.
On a smarter car, this is how the ECU knows what octane fuel you are running so you can get the most out of your engine.
It looks like a little hockey puck (about 1.5" in diameter) with an electrical connection - and is usually bolted to the block, one per cylinder bank. That's the norm, I don't know how Subaru handles it.
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I installed one in my wife's Ford Explorer. If you are at all handy, and don't mind removing the headliner (fiberglass is annoying), it really wasn't that bad of an install - maybe 4-6 hours with a buddy.
Take your time, hide all the wires under the molding, I mounted the player under the back seat in the Explorer. I don't know what kind of unit your are getting, the player might mount with it - if not... under the passenger seat might work.
I wouldn't decide on where to put it until the headliner is out.... make sure you have enough to mount too....
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The yellowing actually comes from the ionization of oil in the presence of sparking voltage. It's normal but a lot of build and and debris can lead to spark leakage if you couple that with bad boots.
I would be more concerned with what else is on the insulator. It looks very serious and I am surprised no one pointed it out yet... THEY SAY BOSCH PLATINUM!!!! I know they are cheap for a platinum plug, and you will get what you pay for...
I just replaced my OE NGK Platinums with a projected tip spark plug (slightly colder too), and have a noticeable increase in mileage. Stick with NGKs, I think you will be happier.
Just my $0.02
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I have a 97 OBW 131,000 miles, 2.5L, 5SPD... I check my mileage every tankful and with nearly pure highway miles (just a few stops between home and work -45 miles each way) I religiously get 26.5 mpg... low of about 25 if I have to pass a lot of semis on the two lane road, or high as 28 on fresh oil checked tires and windows up.
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Except for the clutch and headgaskets, everything you mention should be able to be done without pulling the engine. Before you pull the engince check for HC's in the coolant and if there are none, why do you think you need a headgasket? If your car is a 2.2L engine, your head gasket should be okay but it wouldn't cost much to check first. 130K is not too early to need a clutch but do you really need it? Other items you mention should fall into the $600 to $1000 range. If you need a clutch and headgaskets, you could be in around $2500. I'd keep evaluating my options at this point; expecially avoid that $6700 deal!
It's a 2.5L, clutch is starting to slip in upper gears. I will probably not do the head gaskets, just because they aren't bad - I just don't want to have to make another trip in a couple months with a catastophic failure. I know these HG are sketchy, will they all fail eventually? Or might have have a decent set?
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I posted a couple weeks ago referring to an oil leak coming from my timing cover on the 97 OBW. So I am getting quotes for a good once over on the engine, since it will most likely be pulled, might as well get everything done at once (131,000 miles).
Here goes:
Timing belt, idlers, pulleys
Water pump
Oil pump
all new gaskets and seals on the front of the engine (cams and main as well)
Since the engine is pulled, head gaskets and a new clutch should be cake, right?
Two dealers:
One dealer sounds all confused after trying to find out a quote for everything, they told me about $2,500 (seems reasonable)... but they also asked if it was a 2.5L or 3.0L (was a 6 even available in 97 OBW) - so they sound a little amatuer
The other quote $6770!?!?!?!? The car isn't even worth that, how do they get off even thinking that.... I could get an entire rebuilt engine with a new clutch for that price
I still want to go to a place that is not a dealer and get a quote, the guy specializes in Japan makes - not necessarily in Subaru though.
What would be the going rate for this much work???
Any techs reading looking for some side work???
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If you haven't done the head gaskets do it all like others said. It's simply not worth tempting fate as it's only a matter of time before they go. Reseal the whole motor, new head gaskets and a new clutch and run it for another 100K+.
You can probably find a Subaru tech in your area that will do the work for you so you can save some cash.
Any Subaru Techs with the abilities/experience/tools at home to pull this engine, feel free to contact me - if you are looking for a little side work. I will gather what I can in parts, and leave the rest to you. I live outside Rockford, IL - but would drive about an hour in any direction for the right price.
email me at kevin.koss@us.army.mil... and we can iron out the details offline.
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SuperSubaru, in case you missed what Gnuman said, the timing belt itself potentially being damaged by the oil is the bigger concern... the timing cover gasket being damaged is much less of a problem, more a symptom or side effect of a potentially much larger problem. Not trying to be redundant here but striving for clarity.
Steve
Understood - there is no oil that should leak out of there... so the oil leak is deeper, and simply is showing itself because on top of the oil leak the gasket is also damaged... had that not been a bad gasket, it may not have showed there is other things wrong.
Either way, timing belt replacement - and whatever else under there causing this - is the next on the list.
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I will be in these two places next week on my quest for an o2 sensor. Anyone have any yards they can recommend by chance.
rd
If you send a pre-paid bubble lined envelope I will send you one of the ones sitting on my desk... brand new... if you don't mind doing a little splice work.... not OEM - 4-wire
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I don't know if it would be to my benefit to sell. After investing $2000 into it, I know it would be good for another 100K. The starter and alternator have already been replaced, if I am light on the pedal, I can still pull over 28 mpg on the highway (religiously get 26-27 - checked nearly every tank). Plus, it's paid for.
I don't think I could get anything as reliable for the $2000-2500 in repairs that the Sube needs. I don't know if the timing belts have ever been done, and couple that with a new clutch... this might act like a whole new car to me (and up the MPG ever so slightly more).
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the O2 sensor takes a 7/8" flare wrench or offset wrench. This is a universal size for O2 sensors. As for the leak up front (notice how we all jumped on that bit?) That is the more important problem. The gasket cannot be "pushed out" by overtorquing the cover bolts. They have a stop, or shoulder, on them to prevent this. Your timing belt cover gaskets are damaged. You spoke of a "massive oil leak". That means that at least one, if not all, of your seals are leaking on the front of your engine. It is also very likely that your timing belt has become oil soaked, and needs to be replaced. I recomend replacing all the seals (4 cam seals, front crank seal, oil pump O-ring, valve cover gaskets, spark plug gaskets, the grommets that seal the bolts that hold the valve covers on) as well as the timing belt cover gaskets (one on top, and one on the bottom) and the timing belt. While you have the oil pump off, tighten the screws that hold the backing plate to the impeller, to prevent future problems. To do all of this, I would remove the engine from the car. In that case, I would also replace the oil seperator at the rear of the engine with a metal one (your engine came with a plastic one, that is prone to failure, from the factory), and I would even consider replacing the headgaskets, if that has not already been done.
If you are replacing the headgaskets, you will also need intake manifold gaskets, and exaust manifold gaskets. Total parts for all of this is under $300 at 1stsubaruparts.com. The rest is your labor, or that of a mechanic.
If you do decide to pull the engine, the O2 sensor will be just hanging there in the breeze, and can be changed in a matter of seconds. the more serious work of resealing your engine will make it more reliable and trouble-free for annother 100K miles. . .
Well I guess the timing belt gasket is damaged. I wish I could do it myself, but as this is a daily driver, I will need it back on the road as soon as possible. I don't have the tools in my garage to pull the engine. And while a mechanic takes it out, he might as well R&R the 130,000 mile OEM clutch (along with all the seals and belts and so forth). So I am guessing, average mechanic rates for the midwest (Rockford, IL) for the tally to be around $2000?
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SuperSubaru:
Is yours leaking oil from the timing cover gasket? If so, it's probably the oil pump o-ring... here's what mine was doing, there weren't puddles on the ground but as I drove the car around it would leak and the oil would blow backwards:
Steve
That is exactly where mine is leaking from, but the gasket looks old and over-torqued and is being pushed out. There are drops everywhere I stop (not puddles), but the most annoying thing is the smoking from oil cooking on the exhaust manifolds as it blows back.... if I am moving I don't notice it at all... but at stop lights or heavy traffic, it is visible that my car is smoking
Everything New - Gas Mileage Got WORSE
in 1990 to Present Legacy, Impreza, Outback, Forester, Baja, WRX&WrxSTI, SVX
Posted
Thanks for all the input, I will give an update in a couple weeks. When every single tank for 7-8 months reads 25-26.5 MPG, 2-3MPG (10%) is significant.
But I will say the new clutch engagement did take a little gettin' used too. I had some O2 sensors laying around (brand new) so I will probably do that over the coming holiday weekend as well.
I was hoping to see numbers approaching 30 all said and done.