softroader
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Posts posted by softroader
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Related question: does anyone know if a non-California emissions 2000-2004 OB can be registered in California without difficulty or penalty, or be rejected for emissions testing because it's not a California emissions car? DMV is impossible to reach right now or I would ask them.
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Question about Gen 2 emissions equipment. The attached dataplate image is from a 2001 H4 4EAT OBW I looked at last week. The other image is from the 2004 FSM.
I have read that PZEV hurts engine performance and economy, and is more expensive to repair. According to cars101 PZEV appeared on the OBW in 2004. Should I try to avoid the 2004 California OB's? Presumably this would be "C" in Engine Type. I am in the People's Republic of Kalifornia if that makes a difference. I will need to register the car and pass emissions testing. Interested in how undesirable it is to have PZEV on the car, not interested in discussing climate change or any of that stuff.
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3 minutes ago, nipper said:
Actually its getting better again but you have to get to the more recent ones to get there.
You're looking for a very recent OB, right? I hope that works out well for you. Several late model OBs in my neighborhood that the owners seem happy with. I think I'll end up with a Gen 2 H4 4EAT after considering all the good advice I have received here, and I like the Gen 2 OBs more and more as I get more familiar with them.
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8 hours ago, nipper said:
The 4EAT is considered bulletproof as long as its maintaned
7 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said:5EAT is not a direct swap (not even indirect) and they have a LOT more problems. Avoid. You don't need more gears anyway.
28 minutes ago, heartless said:stay with the 4EAT - much more robust
21 minutes ago, idosubaru said:4EAT is far superior to any other Subaru transmission, including the 5EAT. The 5EAT isn't as robust, there's nothing to gain except a few years newer, and the controls make it nearly impossible anyway.
Thanks for the replies everyone. 4EAT it is. Seems like Subaru engineering and reliability is progessing backwards after 2004.
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12 minutes ago, nipper said:
The 4EAT is considered bulletproof as long as its maintaned
Bulletproof is what I am looking for. It would be nice not to have to replace the clutch every 100-150,000 miles. Also curious if the 5EAT (and its TCU) is a direct swap into a Gen 2 OB H4 with 4EAT?
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Just now, idosubaru said:
brake pads are cheap and might be easier.I think “it’s a hybrid now” was a joke right? Because I laughed...then thought, wait maybe it is some sort of hybrid he converted!
Yeah, "hybrid" was a joke
Stole that from my dentist, who also runs an ancient 22RE in his pickup truck. And I agree brake pads are cheap, though I rarely use the brakes, I last replaced the pads in 2009, almost exactly 100,000 miles ago, and there's still quite a bit left. They do fade quite quickly though on the DD, so prolonged use isn't a good option.
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3 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:
Not really. EGT isn't monitored and you only have 1 AFR sensor just the same as pre CANBUS vehicles. Oil level might be on the very new stuff..... Initially even the FB's didn't have oil level. It's like.... 14 and newer maybe? But I think it's only an input the the cluster not the ECU.
GD
Good point. I guess you would have to install EGT thermocouples in the header downpipes and do some software magic to get that. Not sure about individual cylinder AFR, that sounds tricky.
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1 minute ago, idosubaru said:
As am I.
Subaru head bolts are not TTY and need not be replaced if they’re in good condition (99% of the time they are and most of the 1% are old gen blown heads that have sat for 10 years)
The reasons people are confused vary. Some think the angle torque spec, or Fel-Pro “requiring” them to be replaced, means they’re TTY. Or archaic approaches, unfamiliarity with Subaru’s, “better safe than sorry” thinking, it worked - therefore this anecdote must be codified natural law now.....it matters not - they do not need replaced.
I just follow the FSM. If it says don't replace undamaged ones, they're not TTY. Baffling to me why some people still want to argue about it when this is so clear in the FSM, and the FSM is so readily available for download.
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25 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:
I'm much more interested in EGT and AFR per cylinder if I can have it.
GD
The irony is that parameters like this are readily available by sniffing CANbus frames. But CANbus cars no bueno.
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4 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:
Fun stuff to play with. Was a software engineer at one time myself and I do a lot of dyno tuning and some ECM hacking on my GM stuff....
But as an engine builder I typically don't care about oil pressure once the engine is built and it's verified before/during/after break-in. Obviously I care if it drops below 5 psi or so (idiot light zone) but beyond that... Pretty much useless as you aren't going to actually do anything (there's essentially nothing you can do) about it unless it starts knocking anyway.
Oil temp.... Maybe.... but with modern synthetics that can hold their viscosity at 400 degrees it's basically also a non issue.
I'm much more interested in EGT and AFR per cylinder if I can have it. And an oil level monitor that will indicate if the level drops more than 1 quart is useful.
Pressure.... Not that useful. Changes a with RPM and temp, age of the oil, etc. Now if you want something that's actually useful - differential pressure across the filter so you know when it's in bypass - that's useful.
GD
Cool, another software hacker! Agree with all of this, with one exception...
My DD has a 22RE which didn't leave the factory as a hybrid but is one now. It runs on gasoline and oil. Lots of oil. Like 1qt every 200 miles lots of oil. The valve stem seals are shot (37 years old, I got my money's worth out of them), and the oil rings have seen better days, so she burns oil. Can't fix that without removing the head bolts, and the head gasket is at 400,000+ miles, if I remove the head it will be a one way trip with the inevitable pitting. So I leave it alone and just wave a chicken foot over it from time to time, hoping for the best. I keep up with adding oil, but sometimes, especially when descending from the mountains when engine braking is high and there's low pressure below the stem seals, she uses a lot of oil. So much so that, in hard turns, especially to the right, the oil pickup will unport and there's a brief loss of oil pressure. This triggers the EICAS led driven by the arduino until the turn is over and the oil in the pan returns to level. Time to add oil! This has been very useful.
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13 minutes ago, Numbchux said:
Wasn't super impressed with Torque Lite. My preference is the Android app "Piston"
Cool, I just downloaded and installed Piston v2.1.3. Agree it does look better than Torque Lite, useful basic functions instead of silly eye candy. Also half the size. Should have my ELM327 OBD-2 Bluetooth dongle from Amazon tomorrow, then I'll be all set to find me a car.
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46 minutes ago, Numbchux said:
Yes, you can read a bunch of live data through OBD II. [...] I have a cheap (<$20) dongle that I tether with my phone to read a ton of information.
Are you using Torque Lite on your phone for this?
(Their web page says it might not work with some Subaru ECU's, but doesn't say which ones).
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3 minutes ago, Numbchux said:
I think what made what presslabs did very cool, was adding it into the software on the factory TCU, and still retaining the factory automatic functionality.
I agree, what presslabs did was kick a$$ impressive. A very elegant hack that used unused memory in the stock TCU. Good stuff.
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24 minutes ago, Numbchux said:
Yes, you can read a bunch of live data through OBD II. Definitely can't read oil pressure (there is no sensor, just the switch for the idiot light), don't think there is transmission temperature either. But you can view ignition timing, fuel trims, coolant temperature etc. I have a cheap (<$20) dongle that I tether with my phone to read a ton of information.
Thanks. That makes sense. The 2005+ CANbus cars presumably report everything and frames containing interesting parameters are flowing on the bus continuously. But I don't want CANbus.
I added an oil pressure sensor to my DD. I'll just do that to the OB too. It drives an arduino which converts it to a signal that drives my oil pressure gauge and gets upset if the pressure is too low for the engine rpm. And a few things like that. Simple, and way more useful and responsive than the stock snail-slow gauge. And way, way more useful than just an idiot light (it's really just a "too late" light).
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17 minutes ago, Numbchux said:
I think the Nissan/GM version would control a Subaru transmission just fine, and likely could be run in parallel to the factory TCU to retain AWD function.
I've been reading a lot about capacitor failure in '90s Toyotas (to the point that I replaced the 12 caps in my 1UZ ECU as part of swapping it into my 4Runner), and my '94 Ford 351 Van. I'm kind of curious to open up some Subaru control units and see what the caps look like in those. I haven't experienced any troubles like that, though.
I'll look into the GM units, which seem a bit expensive for what they are. Or maybe just build something from scratch for the paddle shifters. It doesn't have to do much, inputs are the paddle shifters and engine RPM, outputs are the 4EAT solenoids and maybe some lights. The logic is simple, shift the tranny according to paddle commands, refuse to shift or upshift if engine RPM is too high. And some smarts to make it play well with the TCU so it doesn't fight for control of the AT or cause the TCU to generate unneeded fault codes.
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On a topic related to my looking for a good used 2000-2004 OB, I have a question about OBD-II Code Readers. I have never used one, my DD predates OBD-2. I need to buy one for my used car search to check for fault codes etc.
I'm looking at an OBD-2 reader that supports live data. Live data would be very useful after I buy the car.
Does the 2000-2004 OB support live data on the OBD-2 port (oil pressure, AT fluid temperature, etc)? I can't find this in the FSM.
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3 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:
I would look into one of the many readily available 4L60E controllers. The Subaru 4EAT has a similar set of solenoids. You could control the rear output with a simple PWM controller or just shut it off for full 4WD or 100% for 2WD.
GD
Good idea, I'll look into that.
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2 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:
TCU failures are a concern as the hardware is getting old. Have seen several 90's TCU crap out or throw erroneous codes.
GD
That type of hardware usually lives a long time. My guess is the failures are due to memory cell changes from high energy particles. Same thing that occasionally causes computers and phones to need an unexplained reboot. Reflashing the TCU should fix that. If the memory cell is damaged not just flipped, the memory chip could be replaced and reflashed. Or it could be a failed solder joint from vibration - my cruise control computer in the DD suddenly started to drop out at random times after working for years. I resoldered every joint on the board (easier than finding the bad one), reflowed the conformal coating with some alcohol, let it dry and reinstalled. It's been fine for years.
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14 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:
They have reasonable power for what they are. Not nearly *enough* power IMO, but then everything I drive these days has at least 350 HP, and you get spoiled driving high HP race cars all the time.
They will get down the road, up mountains, and they don't feel like everyone is going to run you over. But they certainly aren't fast.
GD
I get to drive a very high performance vehicle at work, so have no need to go fast in my car. Especially since a suicidal deer decided to run in front of my DD in the mountains a couple of years ago, now I drive mountain roads at the speed limit or less, much to the annoyance of the drivers behind me who seem to think a twisting two lane blacktop with blind curves and sheer drop offs is an extension of the freeway. Reasonable power should work fine for me.
I'm used to my DD which has over 400,000 miles on the original 22RE engine, which wasn't exactly a speed demon when it was newer... now, when I drive up that long grade on 395 from Bishop to Mammoth Lakes, I'm in the far right lane, 3rd gear, giving the engine as much gas as it can use, one eye on the temperature gauge and another on the rear view mirror watching the rapidly growing sight of a vehicle with more torque than mine as it gets ready to swerve past me mere feet from my bumper, horn blaring, middle finger extended, as though I chose to crawl up the grade as slowly as crankcase sludge on a cold winter morning. I love my car, she gets me there, but that is no fun at all.
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3 hours ago, Numbchux said:
[...] it's very well documented with some basic wiring modification to lock up those clutch discs on an MPT car.
Numbchux, did you ever try hacking the TCU to add paddle shifters to the 4EAT? I came across a thread from 2008 (yeah, I know) in which you were planning to try this on your XT6. Did anything ever come of this? I'm toying with the idea of doing this to my OBW when I finally find the one I want, it isn't necessary at all but it would be a really fun project. I'm a EE/CS and have years of experience writing assembly language for embedded processors and operating system kernel code so taking on a TCU modification project like presslab's in that 2008 thread doesn't faze me in the least. Though as I recall he had to make some hardware modifications to the AT, and I would not want to do that.
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5 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:
Just get a non-VDC 4EAT 2000 to 2004 Outback or Forester. VDC transmissions are difficult to find replacements for.
As for running a mismatched tire for a few miles - it's not going to be a problem in practice. [...] the transmissions just aren't failing [...] The auto's really don't care much.
The manual's suffer from center diff failure on the regular [...] clutch, and the lack of a low range [...], they are a poor choice. Especially for off road.
The EZ30's go about 175k to 225k and lose HG's. Once they go you can replace the engine cheaper than you can replace the HG's. [...] Personally I feel they are a poor investment.
GD
Great info, thank you. No longer sure it makes sense to get the EZ30 OBW with its DOHC headaches, expensive parts, cheaper to swap in a JDM EZ30 ($1200) vs replace the HG's (ouch!), all for an extra ~45HP and ~45ft-lbf torque (and a heavier vehicle) ... and most 2001-2004 H6's for sale around here seem to be right in the "175k to 225k and lose HG's" range so it would be a ticking time bomb.
No longer sure it makes sense to get the 5MT either with those common center diff failures, and no way to know the car's real history... maybe it was run on mismatched tires for years and damage already done that wouldn't show up on a short test drive without fully warming up the viscous coupler... and I do plan to do a lot of offroading (softroading, nothing gnarly) in this Outback.
Looks like the sweet spot is the 2001-2004 EJ251 4EAT MPT, and just deal with the timing belt (easy) and head gaskets (not difficult) when the time comes. My assumption coming into this, after having driven 4-cylinder cars with AT's years ago, is that if I bought an H4 4EAT OB I would be buying a snail that couldn't get out of its own way, but the 2001 H4 4EAT I test drove a couple of days ago didn't seem like that at all, and there are a lot of H4 AT OB's out there whose owners seem satisfied with their performance, even in mountain states. Guess I need to drive another one to make sure, then grab the first good one that comes along.
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7 minutes ago, Numbchux said:
www.car-part.com, take a look in your area.
Mid-2002 got a front brake size upgrade and center console change.
Was part of that change the twin cup holder vs single? I'm looking at a 2002 OBW today that (from the pics) has a twin cup holder, so will that mean it also has the front brake size upgrade?
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36 minutes ago, idosubaru said:
I've run tons of Subarus over a quarter century on mismatched tires and have never had issues. I wouldn't do it on modern EJ manuals, the older gen manual trans seem to almost never have issues, i've seen one potential case in 25 years.
I've seen meticulously maintained low mileage one owner Subarus get torque bind.
Does "modern EJ manuals" include the 2001-2004 Gen 2 OBW? I'm asking because I'm going to see one that's for sale today. A 2002 5MT.
Why did those cars get torque bind? What failed and what caused it? Is it certain years/models I should be avoiding?
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41 minutes ago, Numbchux said:
The VTD cars have a true mechanical center diff, with spider gears, sending power to both front and rear. They use the exact same clutch discs as the MPT, but their function is only to limit slip, not as the sole transfer of torque.
5 minutes ago, idosubaru said:Pandora's box discussion.
[...] The VDC's don't have this circuit but you're asking about MPT's.
[...] But there are options for those with some mechanical understanding or willing to ask and find out what they're options are. For those willing to learn - the hard part is knowing who to listen too. This is probably the best forum to do so [...] If you're asking these questions - you aren't the general public.
From there it gets into a loooong discussion about nuance - how long, how different, does it matter, and most opinions are going off anecdotal reports or gut feelings with zero experience. [...]
I've come to the right place then. Yes, willing to ask, and very willing to learn. I am an engineer, anecdotes are sometimes useful but what I really want to hear is knowledge from those with actual experience, real data. A good example is the recurring question of whether the EJ25 head bolts are torque to yield or can be reused. The FSM says they can be reused. So that's the correct answer. But the tribal skirmishes keep happening over it regardless of the fact.
Anyway, I actually was asking about the VDC system, not the MPT. Sorry, I wasn't clear in my question, I should have written "which the clutch discs will try to compensate for" instead of "which the MPT will try to compensate for".
The scenario would be temporarily installing a spare tire, which for whatever reasons might not match in diameter or tread type etc, to extract from an offroad situation and drive, perhaps a few hundred miles, back home or to where a matching tire could be obtained. What I'm curious about is whether, with the VDC system temporarily disabled, the AWD system would tolerate the mismatched tire on one axle because the center differential, being a differential, inherently wouldn't mind the difference in front vs rear axle rotation rates. I'm curious because (a) I want to understand how this system works and (b) the vulnerable and always connected viscous coupling in the MT Outbacks makes me uneasy in this scenario.
Loved your Little Boy comment! Totally agree about Subaru marketing dogma, and those who regurgitate it. I'd much rather understand te system and be able to make fact/knowledge based decisions.
Need help selecting the right OB / engine
in 1990 to Present Legacy, Impreza, Outback, Forester, Baja, WRX&WrxSTI, SVX
Posted
Yes, I think it is the one that cars101 is talking about when they mention PZEV in 2004. Three cats and 5 O2 sensors for a 4-cyl! Insane. I will be avoiding it, probably a quick way to spot one would be the throttle body. I've seen pics of the different airboxes between the EJ251 and EJ259 but I'm still a bit unclear which is which. The throttle body would be a sure sign.