dhewitt

Here's a plot of the MPG on our '03 Outback wagon since we got it. (Yes, I actually write it down every time; it drives my wife crazy.) It's a basic Outback with the 4 cyl and auto. trans. It had 25,000 mostly highway miles on it before we bought it. The MPG took an odd dive for a couple years, and not sure what caused that. But, it looks to be on the mend (on its own?). The long-term average is the horizontal dark line at ~27.5 MPG. The years are marked at January and the dark line is a moving average to smooth things out. As an aside, my other vehicle, a 1995 Toyota pickup 4WD, gets far less erratic MPG for some reason. soob_mileage_early2008.pdf

I plan to fix this with a Subaru thermostat soon, but I'm curious about the technical details... We had an aftermarket thermostat put in at a timing belt change. Now the temp. gauge runs up to a hotter point than I ever recall before, but it eventually settles down to where it usually runs. It never seems dangerously hot, but hotter than before. Does this mean the thermostat is sticking open or sticking shut? (Or, of course, neither... )

A few years back when we were checking out the market in this genre, we looked at (don't laugh) the Honda Element, the Toy RAV4, and the Honda CR-V. We wanted something that could take us camping and generally cart around a lot of cr*p. I had my little Toyota truck to do the tough stuff. None of these other three had the interior room of the Soob except the Element, but that thing got awful gas mileage for a little car with a 4-banger (22-24 I think). I guess being shaped like a box ain't good for aerodynamics... We eventually looked at a Passat wagon and a Volvo too. The Passat had all sorts of mechanical trouble except for one year model and we weren't willing to take the risk. We liked the Volvo a lot but when we called a couple shops locally they basically told us to steer clear because of the amount of work and expense of the parts. If the mechanix will tell you that, it means something. Bought the Soob and never looked back... wouldn't change anything. (Ah how things have changed now... just finished settling on a Toyota Sienna. I can hear the crying in the back seat already!)

[Touchy-feely stuff up top here, but I do have a couple mechanical queries near the bottom...] I should apologize as well. As keltik very rightly pointed out, I should never have started a thread here focused on ok4450's comments on another board. Very poor on my part. I did hope that it would generate a bit more discussion on what exactly causes this vibration (via countering ok4450), and at least that part of my purpose was realized. It's an interesting mechanical thing going on here, even if I have no first-hand experience "under the hood" with it. (Also, if that vibration comes back, you're right - I'll feel real bad, for two reasons.) I also should (and do) apologize to ok4450, as I trust the assessment of others that he's helpful and a good addition to the CarTalk board (and perhaps this one in less heated threads). That said, ok4450, when you say things like: ... the not-so-shrouded criticism is still obvious. It's similar to my comment about your profile, which was unnecessary and uncool. Sorry. Overall though, I don't think I gave a "bashing" of any type. I just re-read my CT posts and I don't see any bashing in there. I think you got hot about this because you knew more than me (admitted) and couldn't stand me not agreeing with you. Now, to the mechanical stuff... Right up front, this mechanic is not yanking me. He's a valued mechanic in the area and has across the board 5 stars in the Mechanix files at CT. He's become a friend and values my business. It would do him no good to yank me. * The throttle plate screw (or idle screw, whatever you want to call it): -- My mechanic apologized for all that and I GET IT that that was bad. He said the car wouldn't let him adjust it more than a few thousandths (of an inch? [not sure what measurement he meant]) so it wasn't a route to a real fix. He did move it a bit and now he moved it back. My question is: If that's such a bad move, what does it do to engine performance? Other than the vibration, we took a 1000 mile road trip with that adjustment and got great gas mileage. ?? * I also have not heard any consensus about whether a timing belt being off a tooth could be the problem. Many yeses, many nos... Recalling that this is a 2003 Outback with the 4-cyl and auto trans, CAN the thing perform fine (other than a vibration at idle) with that belt off a tooth?

Welcome fella. I think CNY_Dave (thanks man) has provided some good details that you're ignoring, which seems par for the course. I especially liked his approach to these kinds of problems, which seems rational: I don't know the mechanical aspects. All I know is that on this last trip to the mechanic the car was still making the same vibration that it had on two NAPA axles (we were on the second one, the first developed a click not long after it was installed and was replaced on warranty). Then, my mechanic did the following (and this is ALL): 1. took the old axle out 2. put in the new axle in ... vibration is gone. You seem to enjoy getting hung up on the fact that my mechanic futzed with the throttle screw (fair enough), but you're ignoring that other people have had this same problem without anything to do with a timing belt change. Thus, all your other ranting about timing, wires, etc. doesn't apply to them. If they get the same result by just putting a good axle back in, it's hard to see why we need a complex explanation for someone just looking to fix the problem (make the vibration go away). Occam's razor... (Sorry to USMB for having to tolerate this.)

Yeah, I hate to admit it, but I think my very first post was a bit confused - "low idle". But, if the dumbace had thought a little bit instead of going off on a rant he wouldn't have made a fool of himself. He just posted another retarded diatribe. His profile at the NPR board is a *little* egotistical, and it's not impressive.

Before I came over here to get some advice about my axle replacement problem (idle vibration with a NAPA half-shaft), I had posted to the Car Talk (NPR) message board. Check out the comments by "ok4450" - he called (some of) you delusional morons... what a jerk: http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/691615.page Needless to say, I'm glad I found you guys.

Just wrapping this up... In the first reply to my query, porcupine said: It don't seem like a coincidence to me... we replaced the NAPA axle with a MWE axle yesterday and we're back to normal! My mechanic said something to the effect of "What the heck? They looked the same, and I can't imagine what caused that." He asked for Marshall's contact info in case this comes up again... he was intrigued. Thanks a million guys.

Put in the MWE axle yesterday and the vibration went away! Back to normal. Might be best to simply avoid NAPA axles. The first two we tried in this car developed clicks soon after they went in and were quickly replaced (under warranty). The third set up the vibration, even though it seemed fine otherwise. Too much headache and worrying for me.

Yeah, serious Yikes. I hope our '03 doesn't develop the same problems. I'm reasonably sure that our smell is from the residual grease when the boot tore the first time and threw it all over the place. For the record though, can someone post a picture or describe where I could look to see about the head gasket leak possibility? We just had the axle replaced yesterday and our vibration problem went away!! I'll post a final time to that thread to close it out.

(Apologies for posting twice so close together.) I recently had to have the pass. side axle replaced on our '03 Outback (folks here have helped with this). The CV boot had torn and grease was thrown out onto the top of the exhaust, causing a smell unlike any other routine car smell I had smelled before (i.e., distinctive). We're set to replace the axle with a Subaru one, but now the smell is back and the boot is intact and I can't see anything odd about the axle. Is it possible that something internal and unnoticeable is going bad on this axle and causing that same smell? If not, I'm worried I need to be looking for another problem. The smell is pretty strong and infiltrates the cabin, especially after the first 10 minutes or so in the car.

We had the thermostat and water pump replaced with a timing belt change a couple thousand miles ago. Since then, the temperature gauge seems to run a bit hotter than I recall before it settles down to the "normal" place - about half way up. It's not up in that hotter spot for long - 10-15 minutes maybe - but it worries me. Could this be due to an aftermarket thermostat? If so, is it something to worry about?

We did the same thing with our '03 Outback before we knew any better - put in regular platinum from NAPA (don't recall brand). Lost gas mileage and replaced with NGK. Better.

There's a slew of threads about this issue; below are some of the meatier ones. The vibration related to this issue only occurs in gear (put it in Neutral, it goes away). Unfortunately, not enough people return to let us know what worked to fix it or not fix it (hint to new people). A common thread appears to be that non-Subaru axles (half-shafts) are not good replacements. It's not clear why the non-Sub axles generate a vibration, but it happens often enough to defy coincidence. Other ideas are proposed and in some cases things other than half-shaft replacements have fixed it. Another 1998 Outback idle shudder 1998 Outback vibrates when stopped in Drive 2000 Outback wagon shudders at idle after half-shaft replacement 2000 Outback vibrates when stopped at idle 1999 Outback idling at low speed after axle replacement 1995 Legacy wagon vibrates when idling in drive or reverse 2003 Outback vibrates in idle when stopped 1998 Outback idle vibration - considering replacing motor mounts 1997 Legacy Outback - same problem...

Just last night I was driving our Outback (my wife's car) and noticed something that might be related. After we started from cold (in the 20s, so pretty cold) the temp ran hotter than I had previously ever noticed it go before falling back to "normal". Could these be a thermostat issue - taking longer to kick in? It didn't concern me at the time cause it didnt go to red or anything, but it was higher than I had ever noticed before. (Yes, we had the thermostat replaced with the timing belt, and it was a aftermarket - geesh.)

After my recent trials that led to the wisdom that aftermarket axles aren't good for Subarus (at least '03 Outbacks), I'm wondering if folks here have opinions about other parts that, more or less, should never be replaced with anything but Subaru parts. I've read some people's preference for only Soob timing belts, and I'm particularly curious about that as I just had mine replaced with a NAPA. I'd like to continue supporting my local shop but want to be sure and ask him to get Soob parts when it can make a difference. Anything else? Opinions?

We just went through the same issue. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=83879 I ordered a Soob axle from Marshall Wolf at MWE Axles (just google it) through PayPal - piece of cake. He's shipping it out today and we should know by the end of the week if this fixes the problem (identical to yours).

My mechanic was surprised but intrigued when I told him about the axle issue. He hadn't heard of that. I ordered the axle and he's gonna do the job for free. If the new axle doesn't fix the problem, I'll be frustrated. Incidentally, we're smelling the same smell that arose when the boot on the original axle was torn (why we took this in to begin with). I'm guessing it's another bad NAPA axle that's just taken a few weeks to go bad. I hope it lasts.

Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the continued help. The check engine light has never come on in this car for us. My mechanic never touched the ignition wires or intake - they're OME - and he had checked vacuum leaks and found none. He did use a NAPA timing belt, so that could be a second thing to check. Didn't get the part number. I spoke with my mechanic today and he right off said he wasn't convinced anymore that it was mounts, and wanted to dig a little (this guy's good). He had checked with some folks that agreed it probably wasn't mounts. We're gonna start with a new axle from Marshall at MWE and see where that leads. It's still odd that an axle issues can generate these symptoms, but it seems to be a recurring problem. My mechanic also mentioned that he had only adjusted the throttle stop a "few thousandths" because that's just not something you can do on these engines. In other words, he realized that fallacy and hadn't done something stupid (I'm liking him more and more).

Almost forgot... both of you mentioned cam timing, but would that only happen when it's in gear and stopped? Wouldn't that be noticeable at other times? Ditto on the wires? I don't know, just thinking out loud.

I'm pretty sure he said he had to get the belt from Subaru to be safe. I'll check and let you know.

Thanks a lot for the help! I'm gonna chat with my mechanic to be sure he's confident that the timing belt installation is not a concern, then I think I'll suggest we start with the axle and see if that works. Being on the 3rd N*PA axle scares me a bit anyway for long-term. Your suggestion prompts the obvious query - OEM from Subaru or MWE? Someone else mentioned a brand sold at Advance that was good (didnt say which) or EMPI (don't know how to get those). My mechanic cleaned the IACV the first time we noticed it - that was his first guess. It seemed to fix it for a half day or so, but then it came back. Not sure if that helps in diagnosis. I noticed someone else found a vacuum leak and a new PCV valve fixed it. That's cheap and might be an easy second step, along with a new IACV. I'm tending to think that the motor mounts should be a last option. As a last bit, you must know what the 2 tach. marks between 0 and 1 indicate in terms of RPMs, no? Is that 500 and 750? And why couldn't they just use the three-mark intervals as in the other areas of the tach, to save me a headache?

Yes, I've read the million or so threads here about the idle vibration , but I think there may be some more interesting things in this case. (If not, I apologize in advance.) I had our '03 Outback 4 cyl. in for a timing belt change (drive belts, water pump, and thermostat too) at 95,000 before a long road trip. It's otherwise in great shape and we follow the prevent. maintenance religiously. First, a question: on this car there are 2 marks on the tach between 0-1, but three elsewhere. Is the first mark, which is thicker like the middle marks between the other thousand marks, for 500 rpm? And thus the second for 750? It's important here because I want to know where the standard idle (around 650) would fall on the marks between 0-1? Two issues related to the work: (1) While doing the job the mechanic checked on a smell we had noticed and found that the CV boot on the passenger front axle was torn and grease had leaked out - causing the smell. He replaced the axle with a N*PA one, but immediately called and said that it didn't seem right, so ordered a new one. That one went it, we drove 1,000 miles on a long trip with fine engine performance, and about midway noticed a clicking sound up front (freaking out my wife). We just had it in and he said it was another poor axle, so he replaced again (I know he's replacing them, he shows me, and I'd trust him with my dog). Does anyone have prior experience with these axles? The obvious response is "don't use N*PA axles", but he's confident it was just a bad batch. And, so far, this new one seems fine. (2) After getting the timing belt changed, the car had a decidedly low idle only when stopped (less than a few MPH) and in gear (say, about that first mark, maybe 500 rpm) and it shuddered a bit. The shudder was noticeable mostly in the steering wheel and made an obvious noise, but not terrible; perhaps 2-3 times the normal shudder (which has always been more than on say, a little coupe). They adjusted the Idle Stop up a bit and the idle is now around that second mark (750?), but the shudder is the same (or maybe a touch worse). The shudder is no worse when it's cold, but can be sporadic, though its pretty consistent. After doing some research, I'm convinced that the idle stop should not have been messed with (I hope it's easy to reset it to factory), and that reman'ed axles stink sometimes (though 2 in a row seems a bummer coincidence for me). My mechanic is genuinely interested in fixing this and we're confused. His current working hypothesis is the engine mounts, which he says can offer poor buffer for these H4 engines. On this list I've also seen the reman'ed axles blamed and, unfortunately for me, that's confounding here. Someone else mentioned that the timing belt could be off a tooth - but wouldn't that cause some performance loss? (We got the same ol' MPG on that long road trip.) I imagine this could be checked with a vacuum guage. Opinions, suggestions - Please!? My mechanic even put the car on the lift to watch the engine when it was doing this (so presumably someone was in it on the lift - uh, OK), and he could stop it by "putting a bar under the engine". This was a short spur of the moment description, so I wouldn't read too much into it, but it he can stop it that way, does that lend credibility to the mount solution?