Sconnyite

I'd love to be party to a suit. I'm livid, and out $4000.

I just bought an o4 Outback after my 97 OB LTD overheated once, and the dealer diagnosis was a blown head gasket/warped head combo meal. The only reason I bought another subaru was the dealer gave me $5000 for my trade in. I doubt the next one will be a subaru. I plan to sell this one in three years, and cut subaru loose from my life for a decade or two. I'm still very pissed. Stand up and take responsibility for your design flaws SOA.

Try emailing subaru from their website to get it in writing. They actually do get back to you quickly with a personal answer and if they give you that company line again, then you'll have a record of it.

I just had this same lovely problem, which left me with the choice of fixxing just the head gasket & Heads(They hadn't taken it apart enough to know whether the cylinders were scuffed) for 1800 in parts, and 1400 in labor(Dealer), or purchase a rebuilt engine from Colorado Component Rebuilders(Exclusive subaru engine rebuilder) for $2695 plus $200 shipping, with about 700-$1000 labor. The benefit of the rebuilt engine is that by replaceing the whole thing, I'd save on labor, and be certain that the lower part of the engine was in good condition. Imagine doing the head job and having the block go bad 500 miles later. Plus they offer a 3 year 36,000 mile warranty. Of course, I was also upside down on the car loan(I owed $9K). So I did the best thing I could, which was trade the car in for $5K and buy a new one. I won't be driving the new one past 60K though. I feel dumb enough buying subaru again after being burned, but no one else would pay that much on trade for a car with a blown engine.

I just traded in my 1997 Outback, but hung onto the hitch and pet barrier hoping they might fit my new outback. No such luck. Is anyone out there in need? The pet barrier is two years old, and the hitch is one year old(Draw tite, class two receiver.) Both were purchased at the dealer. I'd ask $50 for the barrier, and $40 for the hitch. I paid $160 and $130 respectively when they were new. Email me directly at heuschej@usa.com. I can provide photos if you like. Thanks, Joel

The maintenance at 30 K is a fair point , but it turns out my dealer will perform those inspections and fluid replacements at no charge. As for the risk of repairs between 36-60K miles, there's still the powertrain warannty to protect me. There is the possibility that some fluky repair would be necessary before 60K, but if I were going to include that for the new car model, then I'd be inclined to throw a complete engine replacement into the 60K-120K senario. I'm betting the likelihood of each is equivalent.

Check out the thread posted just recently called "Water noise from heater core". Not good.

Again, this is somewhat beleivable with a 2.2L, but NWIH could you do that with a 2.5.

One more thing- The reason this car gets such a work out is that it is the only car we have that fits our dog(In the back), our stuff in a rocket box on top, and the baby and my wife comfortably for long trips. Any trip to visit family is 200-1400 mile round trip, and a trip to Jackson WY for some backcountry skiing is usually 2500 miles, once every two years if we can afford it. Our other car mostly stays within 50 miles of the house, though it's reliable as heck -a 93 toyota Corolla(Bought used with 80K) with 150K and counting.

I have to admit I would agree with your argument with an old legacy, with a 2.2 engine, because by almost all accounts the 1.8 and the 2.2 were bullet proof. I had a loyale and it was unbelievably reliable past 120,000 miles. I tried this comparison with a regular 2.5 legacy wagon, and while it stayed close to the same price per mile, it cost slightly more PER MILE, surpisingly, because it lost its resale value much more quickly than the outback. Still, the 2.5 is not as reliable, and if I wasn't feeling the $4000 pinch of its flaws right now, I'd almost laugh that a Japanese automaker went to production with an engine that couldn't hold a candle to the longevity of its competition or even its predecessors. It’s as though they’ve devolved over at the Subaru engine division. Most automakers build more reliable engines using the knowledge gained from past products. Not Subaru. In fact the only reason I'm buying another subaru is because they know my situation with my 97 Outback, and feel bad enough about it to give me $5000 for trade in value on the car. Nobody else will touch it, so I either have to pay the $4000 to fix it, and then maybe be able to sell it, or trade it where it is, which is at a Subaru Dealer, who sells more subarus. They have me by the short and curlys. I'm not convinced that it's anything but a $3000-4000 gamble to drive an outback past 100,000 miles. Many or most will be fine I guess, but mine isn't, and I won't risk being in this position again if the difference in cost long term is so mimimal, or even favoring the new car every three years. Besides, who wants to drive a 10 year old car more than 50 from home?

Dr., My comment about the SVX was probably out of line, seeing how I've never driven one, much less owned one. However, I'd probably have to be wealthy enough own about five cars before I 'd own a two-door sports car with a teenie back seat. I'm just saying Subaru should be thinking about bringing hybrid technology to its customer base, rather than the relatively few who would buy B9.

Okay, this was the expected response. But I believe with the specifications of 20,000 miles per year for three years, I can prove you all wrong. At 100,000 miles, you need to do a timing belt change, although on my 1997 OB, I had to do it at 80,000 miles, because the front seal was leaking, posing the treat of a potential timing belt slip. $350 - 400 Somewhere in here, you'll have to replace the brakes, and it's likely that will include the rotors. If you only have the rotors surfaced, you'll likely find that the brake shops, and even the dealers don't have precise enough equipment to machine them to the specs of the original rotors for flatness, and you'll have a nice brake surge. Fronts and backs- $700 Maybe a new clutch if you're driving a 5 speed, depending on who's driving it. $700. Oil Changes, assuming you do it yourself for about $8 every 3,000 miles , $160 (With the Warranty, the dealer provides oil changes to 36,000 miles, so it only costs $64 for the new car) Tires will need to be replaced once in the used car, but maybe not with the new. $350 The myriad of other things that could go wrong with a used car but not with a new car include AC repairs, battery, alternator, radiator and even serious engine/tranny work. (I know, as my 97 is down with just such a $3200-4000 repair) I will set these items aside for the purpose of this comparison, because I know you'd would all argue that your cars have never needed a replacement of these parts. Sure Wilbur. At the moment the rate is 7.25% at banks around here, though I would imagine you could do better on the internet, so let's go with 4.49%, as was posted by Richard. The only two 2001 Outback wagons with between 60-70K miles that I found within 250 miles of me(Zip 54703, via Cars.com) are selling for $15974 and $17, 902. Let's knock $1500 off the lowest one, and add back a modest 5.5% tax(My local tax rate, yours are probably higher), or $796, and another $56 for title transfer, and $25 for plates, and wisconsin's flat $45 registration fee. The final price on the car is $15396. Finance that at 4.49% on a FOUR year loan, and drive the car $20,000 miles per year for three years. Your costs are: $1351.95 interest $11,284.52 Principle $1,800 in Repairs $160 Oil Changes $350 Tires _________ $14,946.47 Subtotal Now comes the tricky concept of the resale, which apparently is a seller’s paradise in Colorado, but not so much in Wisconsin. Let’s depend on an independent source for our resale values, such as Edmunds.com. Now, we either have to choose the trade in price, the private party price, or the dealer’s price on this resale. Let’s pick the middle one, private party. This assumes that the car is in “Clean” shape, instead of their top rating of “Outstanding,” as the car is after all six years old. Unless you stored it in a vacuum, it isn’t going to be perfect anymore. With 120,000 miles on it, the private party price is $5575 in my zip code. From the cash you get off the sale, you still have to pay off the remaining loan balance, which is $4111.48. You now have $1463.52 in cash left over. Subtract that from the subtotal of costs above(($14 946.47 - $1463.52) and you have paid $13,482.95 thus far for $60,000 miles of transportation. You’ve paid $0.2247 per mile. I’ve set costs I expect to be the same for both, such as gas, and incidental items like broken windshields aside, because they are the same. Items that are not the same(Insurance) will be added to the cost of the new car when I do that comparison next. Depreciation differences are built in to the resale price. Now for the new car. I price one out last week, and it is being held at the dealer for pick-up on Monday. My final price after taxes title and license is $21,661, and I have been approved for 2.99% financing on a 4 year loan(I’m keeping it for three, but using a four year loan to . I am assuming no maintenance costs from zero to 60,000 miles, other than $64 for oil changes. Again, incidentals such as flat tires can happen to any car, and are no more likely on a new on than an old one, and therefore can be excluded from this comparison. The car is under warranty to 36,000 miles, and still has the powertrain warranty to 60,000 miles, so what expenses shall I include? My costs are: $1,255.99 Interest $16,000.82 Loan Principle $64 Oil Changes _________ $17,320.81 Subtotal Now, of course the insurance is higher on the new one right? I’ve got a clean record, and I called my insurance agent for the differential. My insurance will go up by $68 per year, or $204 total for the three years. My subtotal is now $17,524.81. Again to Edmunds for our independent pricing(Using a three-year old car, a 2001 with 60,000 miles on it) for resale value, assuming the car is again only in “Clean” condition, same as above, to be fair, and the private party resale is only $11217 in my zip code. From this I subtract what I have to pay off on the loan, ($5,660.18) and I have $5556.82 left over. I then subtract this cash from the subtotal of what I spent above($17,320.81 – 5,556.82) and I have spent $11,763.99 to drive 60,000 miles on a brand new car, or $.1960 per mile. That means over the 60,000 miles I save $1718.01 by driving a new car. You could argue I would need tires on the car, fine they’re $350, so I only save $1368.01. But I’m still driving a new car!! My dealer said he would give a 2001 a trade in of 12,000 – 13,500 with 60,000 miles If I used ($13,000)those numbers I’d pay only $.1697 per mile, and save $3297.01 over the three years, vs the used car. If you’re thinking yeah, but I’d drive that car way over 120,000 miles, and then the cost would be cheaper per mile, I’d say you’re still wrong, because you will suffer similar drops in resale, and you will experience vastly increased costs in maintenance. Tires every 50-60,000 miles, brakes every 80,000, timing belts every 80K, and on and on. On top of all of that, have you been keeping up with the posts in this forum? The 2.5 engines have a serious flaw in them that causes thousands of dollars of repairs, anywhere from 76,000 miles to maybe 150,000 miles. Add a $2500 engine rebuild to your used car and you’ll never catch up to the value of the new one. This only works in the case of a car in a high mileage use situation, say 20,000 per year, and with a car that holds it’s resale value better than most. It works for the Toyota Camry, but not for a dodge grand caravan. It also fails to be a good value if you only drive 10,000 miles per year, because then when you try to sell it at 60,000 miles, your resale value has gone to heck. If you sell it at 3 years, you’ve only gotten 30,000 miles out of it. With my example it works because I am leveraging the fact that a three year old car with 60,000 miles on it has a higher resale than a 6 year old car with 60,000 miles on it. This is not a fluke. I welcome any effort to punch holes in my scenario, but with the premise that the car has a 20,000 mile per year usages. I am not claiming that a used car is always more expensive, but that it is more expensive with an outback, with this usage pattern.

I have stumbled upon a new(For me) way to evaluate two cars of varying mileage and age of the same type based solely on the price of driving it, per mile. Using this method, it is almost exactly the same price per mile to drive a new Subaru Outback, base model, final price after everything of $21,661, financed 100% at 2.99% APR, for 60,000 in three years, as it is to buy a three year old car of the same model and features from 60,000 miles to 120,000 miles. The trick is that the car must keep it's resale pretty strong(You have to be able to sell it or trade it for about $13,500 - 15,000), and it has to be in a high mileage situation(20,000 per year). You'll pay about $0.16 per mile with each(not including gas, of course), assuming similar insurance, and scheduled maintainance on the older car, none on the new car to 60,000 miles. The problem is, you will pay up front for the new car with a high car payment, but make it up at the end with the resale, whereas with a used car you'll have the low car payment, but very little resale at 120,000 miles, with a 6 year old car. On top of all that, you'll have the security of a warranty for much of the new car's life, and the insecurity of the Head gasket/warping problem that seems so common now.

You gotta wonder what the heck Subaru is thinking when their first swipe at the hybrid market is a "sports car" instead of something the rest of us would drive. Even the WRX has a practical side. Hybrids are slower than a comparable gas engine for the moment, so why would you mate something like that up to a roadster? Do people who buy those things even care about MPG? Hey SUBARU, REMEMBER THE SVX?! Come on!

That price includes everything. Tax Title license transfer, everything. That's how much my loan would be. Now, of course, my 1997 has a bum cylinder head, or at the very least a blown head gasket. Just about everyone I've talked to says that the pistons and cylinders are probably scuffed to heck, and so I'm faced with putting a new engine in at $4K, or getting the heads replaced at $3200, which is assumeing they don't find more wrong with it when they take it apart. I'm buying new instead, and I'll sell that in three years at 60K miles for $13,000. Look for my next post, I'm considering putting the trailer hitch and the pet barrier from my old car on Ebay, unless I find an interested party on here. The pet barrier is only two years old, and the hitch(A draw tite class 2 receiver, from the dealer) is only one year old. Is it against forum rules to post to try to connect with buyers? Let me know and I won't post any more about it here. Thanks for the replies on price, that makes me feel a bit more comfortable with the buy. I give the dealer my final decision on monday.

I may be buying a new 2004 outback next week and dumping my 97 on the dealer. My cost without the trade in on the car after tax title and license is $21,661, for a true base model Outback, stick shift and all, with an all weather package added. Does anyone out there this this is a bad deal, and if so, where can I get a better one? Second issue, I have a subaru pet barrier in my 97, and a draw tite hitch originally from the dealer. Will either of these fit right on the 2004? Thanks much, Joel

The dealer sends the head out to a local machine shop. Apparently the shop is ill equipped to test the heads. A cousin of mine is an automotive engineer, and says the only way to truely examine the interior of a head is to have it x-rayed. Also, I was told on another forum that aluminum heads can be fragile and could be damaged in shipping. You should be able to package for that right?

My understanding is that a short block includes : The block, Cranks, cams, lifters and Oil Pump Assembly. Long Blocks include all of that plus pistons, valve train and Heads.

Sorry, I rushed and only read the PS. I'll check out CCR.

Myles, does anyone sell Long Block SOHCs? Also, what else would you need to change to adapt the 97 to a SOHC(I'm thinking about the car's computer maybe?) Thanks, Joel

I just experienced the Joy the the DOHC engine last week. Dealer tells me I probably have a cracked head, as I have air entering the cooling system, as well as some oil mixed in there. I don't know how those symptoms rule out the possibility that it is just a head gasket(Do any of you?), but the dealer can't reliably test the heads for cracks, so their reccomended fix is two new heads, at a price of $1800 for parts, plus $1400 labor. At this point I ask, what not just throw in a new long block? The dealer tells me Subaru does not sell their engines as long blocks. Can anyone point me to a source for Long block configurations of the 2.5L DOHC engine? Can anyone give me any pointers on how to most inexpensively fix this problem? I'm open to fixing it and selling the car, but not to trying to off loading the car onto some other unfortunate soul, or an unsuspecting dealer. Thanks for any help you can provide. Joel