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1992 Loyale Wagon 4WD: Binding and bad MPG?


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#1 Helios 1

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 12:05 AM

Evening folks,

 

So recently I had several issues with my '92 Loyale Wagon, but now they've become narrowed and slowly eliminated one by one. The other day my mechanically inclined buddy was checking out my wheel bearings and low and behold, the front ones turned out to be the culprits. The front tires will NOT spin freely by hand, but I can start up the car and drive it. ODD...

 

Any theories on this? My buddy says the front wheel bearings are causing binding on the tires which is why my MPG is sucking. I should be getting at least 20 miles to the gallon yet get maybe 10ish or something like that. According to my Haynes manual, it states the excessive fuel consumption can be due to:

 

- dirty/clogged air filter

- wrong ignition timing

- faulty emissions system

- fuel system not properly working

- low tire pressure or wrong tire size

 

I'm thinking maybe the EVAP canister should be redone, but I'm not sure. The car will start up, idle fine, drive (it actually goes pasy 35mph now, woooo), and such. It just seems to be using more gas than it should. That or im crappy at stick shift and have a lead foot.

 

Thanks in advance for any ideas or help.



#2 NorthWet

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 12:21 AM

Any possibility that the parking brake was on when your buddy tried to spin the wheels that the parking brake acts on?



#3 MilesFox

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 01:03 AM

Are you driving around in 4wd? If the bearings were shot that bad you would have camber and steering issues, horrible noises, and brake Toyota grinding on the caliper bracket.

Depending on the history of the car, you may have:
A seized caliper
Mismatched gear ratios between the trans and rear diff
Improper ignition or belt timing
Mismatched tires
Driving in 4wd on dry pavement which is a no no

#4 NorthWet

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:33 AM

I'm still betting that the buddy set the parking brake and jacked up the front of the car... not realizing the parking brake works on the front.

 

Or, maybe, brake pads were improperly replaced recently.



#5 Helios 1

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:29 PM

Any possibility that the parking brake was on when your buddy tried to spin the wheels that the parking brake acts on?

 

Nope. The parking brake was off and the shifter was in neutral.

Are you driving around in 4wd? If the bearings were shot that bad you would have camber and steering issues, horrible noises, and brake Toyota grinding on the caliper bracket.

Depending on the history of the car, you may have:
A seized caliper
Mismatched gear ratios between the trans and rear diff
Improper ignition or belt timing
Mismatched tires
Driving in 4wd on dry pavement which is a no no

 

All four tires are the same size, tread wear, and even the same brand. Cheapo Geostar tires. The rear driveline is out so the car cant engage 4WD anyways...even though the display says its in 4WD.

I'm still betting that the buddy set the parking brake and jacked up the front of the car... not realizing the parking brake works on the front.

 

Or, maybe, brake pads were improperly replaced recently.

The brake pads may need to be redone. I found a set of brake pads in the rear compartment along with a NAPA receipt from 2005.

 

Also, I'm a bit confused on the front wheel bearings right now. I'm literally browsing prices for front bearings while responding to the posts and I'm not sure if I need one or two bearings per wheel. I ask because on Oreillys site, they state there are applications which include inner and outer...and on Rock Auto, they have options for inner and outer...so part# 207, do I need two of these per front wheel? The rear bearings I bought two of because apparantly there's only one per wheel. So confused right now in Subi Land.

 

UPDATE: Anyone got a spare football helmet and waterwings? So, I just looked up the wheel bearings in my Haynes manual and the diagram shows an INNER and an OUTER wheel bearing. I r S-M-R-T...yeesh. Regardless, they need to be done soon since they're noisy. Speaking of, worst case scenarion with a bad wheel bearing...enlighten me?


Edited by Helios 1, 17 August 2013 - 04:36 PM.


#6 Gloyale

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:34 PM

Yes 2 front wheel bearings per wheel.  4 per car.

 

All the same bearing.....6207-c3 or compatible.

 

There are inner and outer wheel seals one of each per wheel.

 

Rear bearings are one big bearing, and an inner and outer wheel seal per side.



#7 Helios 1

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:58 PM

Yes 2 front wheel bearings per wheel.  4 per car.

 

All the same bearing.....6207-c3 or compatible.

 

There are inner and outer wheel seals one of each per wheel.

 

Rear bearings are one big bearing, and an inner and outer wheel seal per side.

EDIT: So, I need an inner and outer seal for each wheel and four wheel bearings total then...since I already have two wheel bearings ready for the rear. Hmm...ok.


Edited by Helios 1, 17 August 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#8 Subaru_dude

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 05:06 PM

Did you recently remove the rear driveline? It states in the title you're concerned about the 4wd binding, but if the rear driveline has been out the entire time then obviously that can't be an issue. And why would you have it in 4wd even if it can't engage it? And one last question, did you just remove a rear axle to disengage the rear end? I believe if you remove the driveshaft then you'll end up with trans grease and rear diff fluid everywhere so I'm wondering how you disengaged the rear end...



#9 Helios 1

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 05:27 PM

Did you recently remove the rear driveline? It states in the title you're concerned about the 4wd binding, but if the rear driveline has been out the entire time then obviously that can't be an issue. And why would you have it in 4wd even if it can't engage it? And one last question, did you just remove a rear axle to disengage the rear end? I believe if you remove the driveshaft then you'll end up with trans grease and rear diff fluid everywhere so I'm wondering how you disengaged the rear end...

When I first bought the car, it was stuck in 4WD and displaying it on the dash. My mechanic buddy removed the rear driveline for me so the stuck 4WD issue wouldn't be an issue. I know it's only a temporary fix though. I haven't seen any fluid or grease leaking either.



#10 Gloyale

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 06:08 PM

 I believe if you remove the driveshaft then you'll end up with trans grease and rear diff fluid everywhere so I'm wondering how you disengaged the rear end...

You can leave the front portion in the trans suspended from the carrier bearing.



#11 MilesFox

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 08:18 PM

If it is stuck in 4wd, then make sure the vacuum lines to the vacuum canister and the 4wd solenoids on the firewall are connected.

 

If all of your heater settings are blowing out of the dash only, this is your original problem.

 

There are 2 bearings for each front hub. all 4 bearings are the same part. Then there are an inner and outer seal for each hub.



#12 Helios 1

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:12 PM

If it is stuck in 4wd, then make sure the vacuum lines to the vacuum canister and the 4wd solenoids on the firewall are connected.

 

If all of your heater settings are blowing out of the dash only, this is your original problem.

 

There are 2 bearings for each front hub. all 4 bearings are the same part. Then there are an inner and outer seal for each hub.

 

The Fox has spoken...haha

 

I do appreciate all the help guys. So far I'm digging the Subaru experience and am even contemplating saving up money to eventually get a BRAT. I'm probably going to settle on ordering the bearings form Rock Auto and call it good. Miles, you got any ideas to give the wagon more personality? I'm not looking to have my own "trash wagon". I just want to do something affordable that'll help me keep interest is all.



#13 djellum

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 02:11 AM

doesnt hurt to replace bearings so you know they are good, but I doubt you would be driving it if the bearings were causing the car to slow and pulling over half of your mileage away.  the noise and vibration if they were that bad would be serious.

 

I would suspect brakes first.  just because the lever is down doesnt mean the parking brake is closed or adjusted right.  follow the parking brake adjustment in your haynes first off.  its simple and quick and will eliminate at least 1 possibility.  if that checks out inspect the actual brake system.  calipers, master cylinder and hill holder if you have one.  

 

stuck in 4wd indicates possible trans issues, if you do the bearings see if you can spin the CV while the spindle is out.  that will tell you if theres some binding in the trans.



#14 Helios 1

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:36 AM

doesnt hurt to replace bearings so you know they are good, but I doubt you would be driving it if the bearings were causing the car to slow and pulling over half of your mileage away.  the noise and vibration if they were that bad would be serious.

 

I would suspect brakes first.  just because the lever is down doesnt mean the parking brake is closed or adjusted right.  follow the parking brake adjustment in your haynes first off.  its simple and quick and will eliminate at least 1 possibility.  if that checks out inspect the actual brake system.  calipers, master cylinder and hill holder if you have one.  

 

stuck in 4wd indicates possible trans issues, if you do the bearings see if you can spin the CV while the spindle is out.  that will tell you if theres some binding in the trans.

I've been driving the car around here and there and it;ll get up to at least 65MPH, but there is noise in the front wheels. I'm contemplating reading codes tomorrow and taking the tires off to see if I can get a better look at the CVs and brakes.



#15 skishop69

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 02:27 PM

Maybe I'm missing something here or everyone else has over looked this... You said he removed the drive line. Did you mean disconnected it? You can't just pull the driveline and drive around willy nilly unless you have somehow plugged the rear output on the trans. If you don't plug it, you will loose a minimum of 3/4 of your gear lube out the back. Since I have first hand experience on what happens when you run one of these trannies low... *cough cough, stupid guy not monitoring fluid levels, cough cough* Lack of lube will cause the tranny to run hotter than normal. This increase in heat causes expansion of components reducing clearances in bearings and gears. The lack of lubrication and reduced clearances causes friction and more heat.... Cascading effect depending on the tranny. My point being is that the front diff carrier/case bearings are usually the first to suffer from this and will drag and whine. The noise will radiate through the axles and sound like it is a wheel bearing issue. Just another thought. So, did he plug the rear ouput? If not, I would question the skill of your 'mechanically inclined' friend. lol



#16 NorthWet

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 02:34 PM

The implication, and thus assumption, is that only the rear segment of the driveshaft was removed, leaving the front section to plug the rear of the tailshaft and the center carrier bearing to support the front section of the driveshaft.

 

This, however, may be an incorrect assumption.

 

I am still puzzled how a front bearing could cause so much drag, and not have MAJOR observable issues (eg - wheels the wobble easily by hand when off of the ground), and how both (assumption) could be so bad at the same time.



#17 skishop69

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 02:37 PM

Agreed, and that's where I was confused on both accounts. The whole thing is puzzling. Check the fluid in the tranny nonetheless for being low, burnt or shiny metal fun. lol



#18 Helios 1

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:42 PM

Maybe I'm missing something here or everyone else has over looked this... You said he removed the drive line. Did you mean disconnected it? You can't just pull the driveline and drive around willy nilly unless you have somehow plugged the rear output on the trans. If you don't plug it, you will loose a minimum of 3/4 of your gear lube out the back. Since I have first hand experience on what happens when you run one of these trannies low... *cough cough, stupid guy not monitoring fluid levels, cough cough* Lack of lube will cause the tranny to run hotter than normal. This increase in heat causes expansion of components reducing clearances in bearings and gears. The lack of lubrication and reduced clearances causes friction and more heat.... Cascading effect depending on the tranny. My point being is that the front diff carrier/case bearings are usually the first to suffer from this and will drag and whine. The noise will radiate through the axles and sound like it is a wheel bearing issue. Just another thought. So, did he plug the rear ouput? If not, I would question the skill of your 'mechanically inclined' friend. lol

The rear driveline is out. It and its 8 retaining bolts are sitting in my wagon's cargo area. I haven't seen any fluid leak out from the area and my wagon isn't driven often. Maybe a few times a week. The bearings (or brakes...still contemplating that one) were already making noise before the rear drive line was taken out.

 

The implication, and thus assumption, is that only the rear segment of the driveshaft was removed, leaving the front section to plug the rear of the tailshaft and the center carrier bearing to support the front section of the driveshaft.

 

This, however, may be an incorrect assumption.

 

I am still puzzled how a front bearing could cause so much drag, and not have MAJOR observable issues (eg - wheels the wobble easily by hand when off of the ground), and how both (assumption) could be so bad at the same time.

That assumption would seem correct, based upon what my buddy did. As for the front bearings, the wheels will NOT turn by hand. Just in case I missed something that my buddy did, I'm going to jack the car's front end up myself and have a look w/ the e-brake off and transmission in neutral.

 

Agreed, and that's where I was confused on both accounts. The whole thing is puzzling. Check the fluid in the tranny nonetheless for being low, burnt or shiny metal fun. lol

 

Just to give a clearer picture...

 

Bought this 1992 Loyale Wagon in early July. When I first bought it, it had an old fuel filter, spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap/rotor, and whatever else. The specific components I just mentioned were replaced. The car was stuck in 4WD (felt like it and it was displayed on the dash) so i had my buddy remove the rear driveline. Afterwards it drove like a FWD. The 4WD is still displayed on the dash. The car was backfiring through the intake. My buddy adjusted the distributor and now it doesn't. I'm going to have the bearings/seals on all tires replaced as well as the front brakes in about a week. I'll provide some photos tomorrow.



#19 skishop69

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 11:51 PM

Egads! You CANNOT pull the driveline without sealing the output saft. Check your fluid level on the tranny. Dipstick for it is on the passenger side. If it is stuck in 4wd then all you have to do is go down on the side of the tranny where the linkage is and pop it out of 4wd then you can address that problem. Get the drive line back in before topping the fluid. If it was making noise before, it's because there is little to no fluid in the tranny. Jack it up, get under it and see if the output shaft has been sealed. Sounds like the reason it's stuck in 4wd is because the previous owner ran the tranny low and quite possibly jacked it up but good. If this is the case, and it were me, I'd put the driveline back in, drain whatever fluid is left and top it with 10w/30 motor oil. Drive it 10-15 miles, drain that and refill with synthetic 75w/90 WITHOUT friction modifiers. IE: 75w/90 that is not for limited slip diffs. The friction modifiers will drastically shorten the life of the blocking rings in the tranny. Do this before you spend money on wheel bearings. If I'm wrong, great. If I'm right, you MIGHT get back functionality of the 4wd and quiet the tranny down. If you can't and it doesn't and I was right about the fluid, it's junk.



#20 Helios 1

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:44 AM

Egads! You CANNOT pull the driveline without sealing the output saft. Check your fluid level on the tranny. Dipstick for it is on the passenger side. If it is stuck in 4wd then all you have to do is go down on the side of the tranny where the linkage is and pop it out of 4wd then you can address that problem. Get the drive line back in before topping the fluid. If it was making noise before, it's because there is little to no fluid in the tranny. Jack it up, get under it and see if the output shaft has been sealed. Sounds like the reason it's stuck in 4wd is because the previous owner ran the tranny low and quite possibly jacked it up but good. If this is the case, and it were me, I'd put the driveline back in, drain whatever fluid is left and top it with 10w/30 motor oil. Drive it 10-15 miles, drain that and refill with synthetic 75w/90 WITHOUT friction modifiers. IE: 75w/90 that is not for limited slip diffs. The friction modifiers will drastically shorten the life of the blocking rings in the tranny. Do this before you spend money on wheel bearings. If I'm wrong, great. If I'm right, you MIGHT get back functionality of the 4wd and quiet the tranny down. If you can't and it doesn't and I was right about the fluid, it's junk.

 

Alright then, good to know. I'll go ahead and take tomorrow to do all that. Gonna try reading the computer codes too. Any ideas about the bad MPG?



#21 skishop69

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:48 AM

If the tarnny is jacked, it's going to be binding and dragging as you already know, it's tough to turn your fromt wheels. This is going to cause the engine to work harder screwing up your mileage.



#22 Helios 1

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:24 PM

Ok, so I'm having a series of face palm moments and it's probably because I believe in following the manual's directions whereas my buddy goes by "redneck mechanic" theories. Sooo...I was looking in the Haynes manual for my wagon and I'm assuming the rear driveline and the rear differential is the same part, yes? If that's the case then yea, I really ought to start taking this wagon to a Subaru mechanic or get my learn on. Turns out you're suppose to "drain the lubricant from the differential". That's literally the second step in removing the rear differential. Sigh...I hope I don't kill this wagon before it gets a chance to off road. That or I'm confusing myself here...



#23 skishop69

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:07 PM

You're confusing yourself. The driveline goes from the tranny to the rear differential.



#24 MilesFox

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:29 PM

Ok,  If that's the case then yea, I really ought to start taking this wagon to a Subaru mechanic or get my learn on. 

That is what being  on this forum is for. You can do it!



#25 Helios 1

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:45 PM

That is what being  on this forum is for. You can do it!

I will admit Miles, there is a certain satisfaction that comes from figuring out auto woes without going to a mechanic. It gets fairly frustrating at times though, especially when you don't know if you're causing more harm than good. I'm sure you've had plenty of "oh crap" moments. Haha.

 

*completely unrelated note, is there a way to change one's user name up here or once registered is it permanent?






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