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Timing belt 95 ej22 and oil pump assistance


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36 replies to this topic

#1 Bushwick

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 07:32 PM

Car has 177k miles and probably still on it's 2nd timing belt and most of the factory idler pulleys (at least one looks like replacement, rest appear original) so finally got around to pulling the cover today. Tried lining both cam index notches up with the slit in the back cover straight up at 12 o'clock , but one of them is off by a tooth. Anyways, the crank pulley has 2 different markings, an orange one and about an inch to the right a white one. Neither match the straight up 12 with the cams, and I'm not sure which one to go off? With the cams straight up, the orange mark is around 10, and the white one is around 2.  Also, the actual notch in the crank pulley outer edge is around the 5-6 o'clock position. Is that just a timing mark for setting base ignition timing (assuming it's a carry over from distributor days?)

 

Question about the oil pump, where is it? It's run off the timing belt, correct? Should I be worrying about replacing it at this mileage? Read somewhere here that you get little warning before the light gets tripped up, so would rather be on top of it while everything is apart.


Edited by Bushwick, 26 October 2013 - 07:33 PM.


#2 Gloyale

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:06 PM

Sounds like your going by the arrows.

 

Don't use the arrows,use the notches you mentioned on the cam pulleys, and the notch on the very back ear of the crank gear that is directly opposite the keyway  (Keyway down, all notches up)

 

 

Oil pump is front center of engine.  the Crank goes though it.  7 or 8, 10mm bolts holding it on.

 

Dont' replace but might be worth removing it, loctite the 5 screws on the backing plate, and then reinstall it with new sealant and a new o-ring.

 

But then again, if it's not leaking behind the pump leaving it alone is fine too.  Just if the oil light comes on while drivng SHUT IT DOWN and DO NOT restart it until the pump is checked.



#3 Fairtax4me

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:50 PM

Oil pump is behind the crank sprocket. 6 or 7 bolts and it pops right off. Get a new o-ring frommthe dealer and reseal with anaerobic sealant.
Definitely remove the pump and check the screws for the backing plate. Had 3 loose on my 95. Only reason I took the pump off was because the front crank seal was leaking because someone had glued it in place crooked.
Swapped on a spare pump rather than bothering with the old one.

If the backing screws are loose lok-tite or put sealer on them and tighten with an impact screwdriver.

Crank timing mark is the small notch on the reluctor tooth. Line it up with the notch in the housing for the crank position sensor. The mark is probably covered in grease and hard to see.

Look for the dashes that are stamped into the cam sprockets. Don't use arrows or you'll never get it timed right.

The left side (drivers) may look a half tooth off, that's fine as long as its half tooth towards the drivers side.

#4 Bushwick

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:43 PM

Thanks for the input guys. I didn't see any arrows though. I was using the (barely there) notches imprinted on the fronts of the cam sprockets. There is also white paint on them for easy reference I believe, as is on the crank, but the crank's white paint marker was WAY advanced and I was assuming it was referencing the crank's notch, but it wasn't. Found the notch for the crank. It appears to be better off than originally thought.

 

Anything else to check with the oil pump itself? Are there any oil starvation symptoms or lower oil pressure if those screws are backed out? Reason I'm asking is the car had the lifter noise, and apparently both heat shields right under the head on the exhaust collector were loose at the base, and creating a *zing* sound I thought for sure was something touching the flywheel. Anyways, with quiet lifters, and quiet shields, I can hear a slight knocking (piston slap really an issue with these?) when letting RPM drop from say 1500 (under hood, not from in the car). When it drops to near idle, I can hear it. Reminds me of a really quiet diesel knock, only not 100% consistent and not there when revving. It has fresh oil and NO lights have come on (yet) and it runs fine otherwise. Seems to be from the the passenger side, near the back of the block. Should I pull the pan (or not) and check for connecting rod play? 



#5 Fairtax4me

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:59 PM

Low miles EJ22 I wouldn't worry about it too much. These engines are kinda knocky anyway. Could still be a sticky lifter just not bad enough to tap. But I would still pull the oil pump to check it. Once the backing plate gets loose you go from ever so slightly lower than normal oil pressure to practically no oil pressure.
The light goes out at something like 3-5 psi. So if the light comes on while you're driving, that means oil pressure is less than that 3-5 psi threshold.
Maybe not such a big deal at idle, but going down the interstate at 3,000 rpm, things get chewed up pretty quick. (Should be at least 30 psi at 3,000)

#6 Bushwick

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:23 AM

I'll throw some loctite 518 at it then. Can you check for any kind of play, scoring, etc. with it out? Is the o-ring the only thing sealing it to the block? 

 

I appreciate you guys mentioning it as I'd like to hang onto this as a 2nd driver and not interested in swapping in a 2.5 block yet. Nabbed a "Legacy" cargo cover from an Outback and being able to put my 65 pound dog back there on it was so nice not worrying about about scratches or poop. So glad I got this instead of a Ranger!


Edited by Bushwick, 27 October 2013 - 12:25 AM.


#7 Gloyale

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:43 PM

I'll throw some loctite 518 at it then. Can you check for any kind of play, scoring, etc. with it out? Is the o-ring the only thing sealing it to the block? 

 

I appreciate you guys mentioning it as I'd like to hang onto this as a 2nd driver and not interested in swapping in a 2.5 block yet. Nabbed a "Legacy" cargo cover from an Outback and being able to put my 65 pound dog back there on it was so nice not worrying about about scratches or poop. So glad I got this instead of a Ranger!

 

O-ring on the passage

 

Sealant around the rest of the flange.  I preffer "the right stuff" brand from permatex.

 

But any good quality black or grey ATV will do.  Although I will say "the right stuff" will work longer, and it  sets up quicker too.



#8 Bushwick

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:02 PM

Is there a trick to removing the oil pump? All the 10 mm bolts are off and the spline gear is off the crank. Does it need a RTV seal broken or something? Was running out of day light and didn't want to force anything so figured I'd ask and try again tomorrow.

 

EDIT: Also, are you guys referring to an actual "o-ring" or the front seal?


Edited by Bushwick, 27 October 2013 - 06:04 PM.


#9 MilesFox

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:27 PM

whack it with a mallet or a hammer with a block of wood. There would be a paper gasket for the unit. The o-ring is the back side with the 5 screws. Use a #3



#10 Fairtax4me

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

Pics and walk through here:
http://beergarage.com/SubyOPump.aspx

#11 Bushwick

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:56 PM

Thanks for the link. Considering how expensive a new unit is, I didn't want to break a corner off the housing or damage anything. Got thread locker for the screws (blue and red), and the 518 for the housing as RTV clumps are no good with oil.



#12 Gloyale

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:44 AM

whack it with a mallet or a hammer with a block of wood. There would be a paper gasket for the unit. The o-ring is the back side with the 5 screws. Use a #3

 

There is not an o-ring or any sealant used on the backing plate.  Just loctite the screws.

 

There is not supposed to be any gasket on the oil pump.  Espescially not paper.  Use a good sealant.  Something that actually sets though, not that stinky blue smeary stuff for "racing" applications or the High temp Orange stuff either.    I wouldn't use that 518 either.  Looks smeary and will leak within a year or 2.

 

I'm telling you.  Permatex  "The Right Stuff" is the best.

 

There is a small o-ring that seals the passage.  Good quality blue rubber O-ring from subaru is best....but any good rubber o-ring will do for 5 years or so.

 

Install the crank seal AFTER you have reinstalled the pump.



#13 Bushwick

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:15 PM

Took it out, completely disassembled, stripped the varnish off with oven cleaner, coated everything back with oil, thread locked, etc. I used the 518 and DID put on the backing plate, but did so VERY sparingly (like a 1/16" bead) only on the outer edge as to keep off the rotor (which was fresh oil covered), and locked the threads of the screws after a good cranking down. It hand spun fine after I primed with a small amount of oil. My thinking was if there was any irregularities in the mating surface between the backing plate and the housing itself, oil pressure and efficiency would drop as it leaked passed. This stuff is recommended for the oil pan on Saab (in lieu of an actual oil pan gasket) which has the same style oil pump rotors. The old RTV that was in this housing had seeped in and was in brittle clumped strips (one was blocking the exit of the oil pump housing leading into the pan) which is no good. The 518 won't do that and shouldn't ruin the rotor if it passes through soft as it's meant to dissolve in the oil as this is why it was used on Saab. It also doesn't need a set time. The How-to link also missed some flange surfaces to seal (I didn't). I got the new timing belt on, cranked it awhile in spurts to get oil pumping, then started. No leaks, no front end sounds, engine sounded even quieter than before and felt like it was running smoother. Time will tell.

 

Also, the 518 can handle high heat in oil. My oil pan in the 2.0L is very thin and close to the engine where the down pipe and cat passes under the engine. With the VERY high heat the turbo puts in there, 518 will hold as good as day 1 a year later. May need heat to pop it off though, but doesn't leak or blow out, nor does it get soft over prolonged oil exposure.


Edited by Bushwick, 28 October 2013 - 11:18 PM.


#14 Fairtax4me

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:36 PM

There is no sealer between the backing plate and housing because the sealer causes there to be greater side clearance around the rotor. This could actually lead to lower oil pressure. Also the clearance between the backing plate and rotor is close enough that anaerobic sealer will set between them. Probably not worth taking it all apart again now, but for future reference, keep that in mind.

Best way to prime the oil galleries after resealing the pump is to pull all of the spark plugs so the engine can turn over freely. Unplug the injectors and the igniter. (No fuel or spark to make fires under the hood while cranking with the plugs out)
Takes about half as long to build pressure that way, and no load on the rod bearings.

#15 Bushwick

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:04 AM

I got it fairly clamped down (phillips bit in a 1/4" ratchet, 20-25 ft/lbs if I had to guess, as tight as they were going to ever be) and went with a very thin amount on that backing plate. Only went on the outer edge, well away from the rotor outline and still had no real excess out the sides so it didn't go inward either. By hand while rotating it with cover on, the rotor spun smoothly and I couldn't detect play. I'll idle it more tomorrow before putting the covers on and watch for leaks. 

 

 

If I wanted to run an external oil pressure gauge on this, what's the best spot? Right off the bottom of the pump housing? Guessing it'd be the left side bottom port? Also, are both those bottom ports on the oil pump housing meant for an oil cooler on a turbo car?


Edited by Bushwick, 29 October 2013 - 01:06 AM.


#16 Fairtax4me

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 08:41 AM

I'm not sure what those are for. The oil coolers are a bolt on unit that goes between the filter and the block.

There are two ports on top of the block that are good for pressure gauges. One is where the factory pressure switch is under the alternator. Another in roughly the same spot at the back on the other half of the block.

#17 Gloyale

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:49 AM

If I wanted to run an external oil pressure gauge on this, what's the best spot? Right off the bottom of the pump housing? Guessing it'd be the left side bottom port? Also, are both those bottom ports on the oil pump housing meant for an oil cooler on a turbo car?

 

The right side is actually the output from pump.  Passenger side.

 

Although I would suggest using the ports on top of the block fairtax mentioned.



#18 Bushwick

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:08 PM

Another question here, but which light is the "oil" light? I only see an orange "AT temp Oil" light in the cluster when key ON. I assumed it was for the trans, is that the engine oil light? Besides that, the CEL is the only other engine light I've seen. Rest are Airbag, ABS, Brake, and I think battery light.



#19 Bushwick

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

The right side is actually the output from pump.  Passenger side.

 

Although I would suggest using the ports on top of the block fairtax mentioned.

 

OK, I was half out of it when looking. 

 

So far it's idling OK and very quiet, but those gd damn lifters are irritating me. Seems at least ONE on passenger side needs swapped out, though it's minor noise and infrequent. 15 of the 16 donor lifters were OK, with one that was slightly stuck at half way. I pulled up on it's plunger tip and it assumed correct height, wondering if it's the one? Either way, engine still sounds 100% better than when I picked it up. Now I gotta track down a replacement stabilizer end link as the front driver side is snapped. Still wondering what idiot engineer ever decided to use PLASTIC!? Plastic on suspension, and plastic intake manifolds are never good ideas, and way weaker and susceptible to breaking than aluminum. Any aftermarket places switch to aluminum end links for the sway bar? Either front or rear? If this keeps happening, I'll definitely upgrade. 


Edited by Bushwick, 29 October 2013 - 07:14 PM.


#20 heartless

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 08:56 PM

...Now I gotta track down a replacement stabilizer end link as the front driver side is snapped....

 

 

funny you should mention that - my 95 had a broken sway-bar link - but mine was passenger side.

 

if it helps any - early Forester links are the same.



#21 Fairtax4me

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:14 AM

Engine oil pressure light is red and shaped kinda like an old oil can. Should come on with the key ON engine off. If not make sure the sender under the alternator is actually plugged in.
If its plugged in unplug it and ground the wire terminal to the block. If the light doesn't come on the bulb could be bad.

#22 Bushwick

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:13 AM

funny you should mention that - my 95 had a broken sway-bar link - but mine was passenger side.

 

if it helps any - early Forester links are the same.

 

Yeah, I think it just broke when I raised the front while doing the timing stuff. I think I'm going to run up to Lowe's and buy a mild steel square tube from the metal section, cut it to length, drill a hole at each end, and swap it in and see what happens. I might be able to harvest the bolt sleeve from the rubber bushings in the plastic and tack weld them so it contains the bolt properly. With that shouldn't have to worry about another "plastic" unit snapping from raising the car or taking a turn. If it works OK, I'll update in case somebody else wants to try it.

 

 

 

Engine oil pressure light is red and shaped kinda like an old oil can. Should come on with the key ON engine off. If not make sure the sender under the alternator is actually plugged in.
If its plugged in unplug it and ground the wire terminal to the block. If the light doesn't come on the bulb could be bad.

 

Hmm. Well, guess there's some trouble shooting ahead. Didn't see anything disconnected while messing with the CPS, but wasn't looking that close. Bulbs rarely burn out, which makes me wonder if it's missing. Hopefully it's just unplugged by accident and not hiding anything bad, though after seeing the oil pump internals gotta say it looked near perfect. 



#23 Fairtax4me

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 04:26 PM

Yeah, I think it just broke when I raised the front while doing the timing stuff. I think I'm going to run up to Lowe's and buy a mild steel square tube from the metal section, cut it to length, drill a hole at each end, and swap it in and see what happens. I might be able to harvest the bolt sleeve from the rubber bushings in the plastic and tack weld them so it contains the bolt properly. With that shouldn't have to worry about another "plastic" unit snapping from raising the car or taking a turn. If it works OK, I'll update in case somebody else wants to try it.


Probably not the best idea. The bolt will break or break the mount on the control arm when the suspension moves. Have to have the bushings to allow the bolt to twist in the end link.
The composite links are not normally a weak link unless the car is being used for racing or serious off-road use. And as with any other material they will fatigue with age and use. A new set of composite links isn't that expensive and will likely last the rest of the life of the car.

#24 Bushwick

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:56 PM

Probably not the best idea. The bolt will break or break the mount on the control arm when the suspension moves. Have to have the bushings to allow the bolt to twist in the end link.
The composite links are not normally a weak link unless the car is being used for racing or serious off-road use. And as with any other material they will fatigue with age and use. A new set of composite links isn't that expensive and will likely last the rest of the life of the car.

 

Well, tested the connector to ground for the oil light, and it seems the bulb is bad or missing. I ran a volt meter to the connector and battery ground and saw battery voltage, so it's at least getting power. I hope like hell it's not missing, as that'd suggest some questionable ethics in it's past. Out of curiosity, where is the engine VIN on the actual engine? Are they number-matched to the car? It's definitely an ej22 engine, but just thinking if the bulb IS missing, it's possible the engine might have been switched at some point thereafter if there was an earlier oil issue that wasn't fixed.

 

 

 

I know some cars run the sway bar directly to the control arm or axle, and the bolts hold up. I'd just be omitting the rubber and plastic, and would use the center sleeve that runs through it. Should be easy to get that out of the rubber, drill a hole through the bar, center it, and tack in place. I think if it's torqued to the same specs as the factory piece, it should be OK. Dunno why it'd hurt the mount? The rubber doesn't decrease the overall amount of load it sees and the center sleeve is what sits on the bolt. I'll be the guinea pig and see what happens. I have an arc welder just in case. I definitely wasn't racing this nor off-roading. The rear should be able to handle this fairly well; the front will have to see. 

 

I googled some WRX aftermarket pieces and it seems the "double balljoint" with a single bar connecting them 

http://ecx.images-am...419GAF4KG7L.jpg  is popular (could actually buy some Saab NG900/9-3 units, mate the threaded ends, and attach together for same effect for MUCH less than the aftermarket companies want for a Subaru piece- Here's what the Saab one looks like: http://www.rockauto....1454&cc=1423088 they have Moog pieces for $5 each, so for $11 I could fab up one side and have the same effect. I did find a rather solid looking aluminum piece: http://www.oakos.com...1/KB-017-08.JPG  with minimal rubber isolating the sleeve (dunno what car it's for though) so the "bar" unit I want to make would be very similar to that. Will try the bar deal first, and if it doesn't work might try the Moogs mated together. Don't forget the sway bar can move and absorb much of the movement. 


Edited by Bushwick, 30 October 2013 - 06:06 PM.


#25 Bushwick

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

Well, checked the light for oil and it was there. Swap the bulb holder with the e-brake and pulled up, oddly enough it worked, and e-brake light was put in the oil slot. No light with key ON. So back to jumping the wire to the ground, only this time it DID light up. Very odd as the bulb was apparently good AND it was snug against the circuit board. Seems the oil sensor switch IS bad, and originally the bulb holder wasn't getting a full contact.

 

 

This brings me to a possible modification. Since you guys/gals are saying the factory oil light switch only comes on when it's REALLY low pressure, and the switch is a one-wire sensor, why not retrofit an oil sensor switch from another year/model or even make for that matter that comes on at a more reasonable low oil pressure? Should be fairly straightforward. If the threads are different, just get one of those brass adapters.

 

Any ideas on what would make a good candidate for a donor switch? 


Edited by Bushwick, 30 October 2013 - 09:16 PM.





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