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92 legacy timing belt
Posted 04 November 2004 - 04:24 PM
anyways this is my first post so go easy on me... i tried searching and looked around but dont see any online manuals for maintinence procedures.
my friend has a 1992 legacy which is FWD. i believe its a 2.2 but i didnt look closely enough... i have only looked under the hood quickly and have not done any diagnostics on it yet but he claims its ben to a mechanics shop and they diagnosed it as a timing belt. first thing i will do is a compression test to see if that shows anything.
the timing belt location seems easy enough, just remove the accessories (PS, alt, AC etc) in teh front and the cam sprocket covers and timing belt covers are right there.
i will follow with my questions:
are there actually 2 timing belt or is it one long one that runs acros the crank to both cams?
is this engine an interference type? IE: am i getting into replacing valves if the belt has snapped?
are the timing marks on the head and crank pulley apparent, or do i need a protracter to find TDC? (lol)
all in all this looks like if there are no bent valves this should be a ~3 hour job- mainly so long since i have never worked on this engine before but it looks pretty straightforward. probably closer to 2 hours but ill be conservative.
if you have any tips or tricks, advice etc just help me out a little. im doing this for some spare cash for the guy but if im gonna have to get into replacing bent valves then i may reconsider starting the job on saturday.
thanks in advance!
Posted 04 November 2004 - 06:37 PM
Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:07 PM
Only tricky thing I'd say is most people mistake the timing mark on the crank gear. Depending on how the previous mechanic aligned things, the marks on the timing belt may or may not be aligned with the marks on the gears/pullies. It really doesn't matter, but if you make sure both the marks on the belt and pullies are aligned, it's just an easy way to check to make sure you have everything correct.
The tensioner needs to be slowly compressed in a vice. If it's leaking...replace.
Also, here's the t-belt change procedure out of the fsm
Just curious....what problems is the car having? You either have a busted timing belt.....or you don't. There really shouldn't be any in between that would cause it to run poorly, unless it's skipped a tooth, which might be caused by a worn tensioner.
Posted 04 November 2004 - 08:23 PM
Posted 04 November 2004 - 10:30 PM
as for the problems the car is having: it wont run. supposedly it cranks (i havent seen it) but wont start and just died on the spot one day while driving. the shop he towed it to said it was a timing belt so i suspect it just snapped, hes had it since like 60k and it was never changed at all. its sat for like 4 months now i just met this guy lik 2 months ago at work. anyway, i am thankful to hear that the pistons have not made theirselves acquainted with any valves. all hyundai engines are interference with semi-pent roofs so valves can and do bend, gotta be careful playing with timing- i know that one too well.
are the oil seals on the cams and crank accessible without pulling the heads or block apart? this legacy has 176,000 on the clock maybe if they can be changed easily i will suggest those too. probably not but ill throw that out here anyway.
so basically the belt itself will have marks on it to line everything up i like that. 777, i see how yours was stretched and the marks on the plastic shroud lined up perfectly after the new install. is that cylinder in the DCP_2718.JPG picture the hydraulic tensioner that needs to be viced? i am doing this in an apartment complex parking lot i should be able to use a c-clamp right? after its compressed will it not spring back out immediately; how do you hold it compressed to bolt it back in place? do those allen screws need to be messed with? or does it just slide in and then you pry it toward the crank to set tension and then bolt her down?
also those tech sheets say to remove the cam sprockets is that necessary??? i wouldnt think so...
also what is the white arrow on the crank gear in this picture:
did you photochop that in there because i do not see that in the other pictures... in your original picture before you removed the old belt i see a white dab of paint that marks TDC as in this picture:
and i do not see that on the new install... did you clean that off and mark it some other way? also the crank's shear pin does not seem to be in the same spot as it was before after your install.
i live now on west genesee st up by avery. just moved here from westcott st which was technically SU campus, i miss the constant parade of college chicks but im doing alright here too.
to anyone eho has never lived in syracuse: dont live here hehe. its cool to visit and such and SU is a good school (although overpriced), trust me when i say that theres too much grime in these streets and its not getting any better. only reason i am still here is that i have a good financial business that has a crazy crazy huge market here and once i am on my way past 50k/year i will open up my own base shop for someon else to run and ill be out of these bull§hit winters for good. its already freezing out and i still havent bought snowtires- snow will hit next week yikes
Posted 04 November 2004 - 11:38 PM
Here is a list of things you should consider (should) replacing while you have the timing cover/belt off:
crank, cam, oil pump seals
Check the tensioner to see if it faulty while you have it off.
Tip: I put white-out on the timing marks for better visibility.
This should get your buddy those much desired Subaru High milage points.
I do not believe the car will start if you do not have the cam timing dead on because there is a pick-up in the gear. (I could be wrong) Josh will let me know if I am wrong.
I used to live in the Valley. We partied like a MOFO up on the hill! They don't call it Scarycuse for nothing. I will be up there around this time next year for my 10 year reunioin. Maybe I could show you what a REAL high milage Roo looks like. Sometimes I miss living there. Things were so much simpler then. (day dreaming with head in hands, elbows on desk...clouds...Gannons Isle milk shake...bragggers wings...my friends....doing doughnuts in the parking lot of the P&C on S. Salina after it snowed...working at the pizza hut in Nedrow) Look what you started! LOL
Posted 05 November 2004 - 08:36 AM
crank, cam, oil pump seals
do the crank and cam oil seals just pry out or is there a retaining clip or are they bolted in place? also where is the oil pump? please look at 777's gallery of pics and inform me as to what picture shows the oil pump and also if that seal is clipped, pressed, bolted etc.
unfortnately i do not know if this guy is willing to (or even has the cash to) replace the water pump and idler pulleys. i will bring it to attention but im not sure if he will go for it- its not my car :-\
damn the valley... thats up in the top 3 places that i WILL NOT visit after dusk. 6' 150lb white boy doesnt exactly fit in too well and i dont appreciate getting shot at; ill play it safe from now on. that P&C is pretty ghetto too but since its a main street right off the highway its still pretty well lit and patrolled (by cops i mean, not the hood). ive only been in the cuse for almost 2 years. i went almost 21 years in fulton and then relocated to be closer to the job. i always heard that its not cake here and you hear about all the stuff on the news but when i was on westcott i was flying down it on my way home for lunch about 55mph and came up over the hill past euclid and saw like 5 cop cars and an ambulance . but they didnt pay my speeding rump roast any mind, even with my long 4-1 header and ricer hyundai exhaust . i learned later that day 2 houses down from my apartment (where they were at) there was a big drug dispute and 2 murders. it gets cold when that §hit gets so close to where you call home... same block and all.
Posted 05 November 2004 - 09:52 AM
Just a quick related question. How often do you change your timing belts? I cannot seem to find the info anywhere. I have a 1993/94 legacy AWD automatic station wagon with cca. 75,000 km on the clock from new.
Thanks for your info.
Posted 05 November 2004 - 12:52 PM
Since it won't run....here's what I'd do first. Pull one of the timing belt cam covers off. If the belt is not loose and you can't pull it out.....the belt didn't break, and that's "probably" not the cause of it not starting. It could have jumped a tooth, in which case, you'd need to realign everything.
If the belt looks good, I would probably start checking a few other things before I tear into the timing belt.
Yes you can get at the cam & crank oil seals without pulling the heads. You will need to remove the cam sprockets and crank gear to get at them. They can be a little tempermental to get out however. There is also a cam seal on the back side of the passenger side. It's just an o-ring and easy to change.
See....the belt will have marks on it. However the marks on the belt don't necessarily have to line up with the marks on the cam/crank. For subie mechanics that have done this job a lot, they'll just line up the marks, slap a new belt on and be done with it. When I put my new belt on, I lined up the marks on the belt with the marks on the cam/crank. I'm just anal like that
The marks don't perfectly line up with the shroud. I alined everything with one side of the engine and put everything back together. It's pretty obvious because the marks are close enough, they're just not dead on.
Yes 2718 is the tensioner. There is a spot to put an allen wrench or some other metal object to hold the tensioner. You basically re-install the tensioner, use a big screwdriver to press it as close to the tensioner pulley as you can, and then tighten the bolts. Once everything is tight, remove the allen wrench. It's covered in the fsm scans I posted. I highly suggest you print them out and read over them.
You don't need to remove the sprockets unless you're doing the oil seals.
As I mentioned above, the marks on the timing belt and the marks on the crank/cam sprockets were not lined up. So that is why things look differently between the before and after pics. That arrow thing is actually on the crank gear, and is commonly mistaken as the alignment mark. It is NOT the alignment mark. The mark is on the back side of the gear.
If this guy has the money, I'd suggest replacing the cam/crank seals, and the oil pump o-ring. There is an o-ring that seals the oil pump and block. Also, sometimes the backing plate screws can come loose, so you can check those when you have the pump off. You will need to reseal it with permatex ultra gray sealant.
The oil pump is right behind of the crank gear.
here's a picture of the hole without the pump on
picture of the back side of the pump
picture of the pump re-installed
There is a trick with the oil seals. If you decide to do the oil pump stuff, you can just knock out the crank seal. The cam seals can be a little more of a pain. You will also need a strap wrench to hold the cam sprockets. To get the oil seals out, you need to take a small flathead screwdriver and dig into the oil seal at roughly a 90 deg angle to the shaft. Once it's in there, you push the screwdriver towards the engine while having the middle part on a fulcrum point. This will pop the seal out. I spent a good amount of time cursing until I figured this out. After that....it was done in 5 min. You need to be careful not to damage/scratch the surface of the crank/cam.
The timing belt on the 1990-1994 legacies should be replaced every 60,000 miles
Posted 06 November 2004 - 06:27 AM
Thanks for the info. I couldnćt quite find it anywhere for certain. Just another thing to put on my to-do list.
Posted 06 November 2004 - 04:59 PM
what size is the crank pulley nut? my socket set goes to 19mm and i assume that one is 21 or 22mm. im gonna have to buy one and just wanna knwo which one to get. thanks in advance!
also i was trying to work around the radiator but i see now ill have to bring a tub and drain the fluids- he hasnt done that in 110,000 miles either so thats no big deal.
Posted 06 November 2004 - 06:05 PM
Thanks Josh. What would we do without him???? If it wasn't for Josh I wouldn't have had the courage to do my own timing belt.
Posted 07 November 2004 - 10:52 AM
and yeah i considered just taking off teh fans but like i said his fluid hasnt been changed in over 100,000 miles so i might as well just take it all off since i plan on draining it. 2 hose clamps and what 2 bolts? no big deal. 90% of the time i find that its even less work to slide the radiator up and out then messing with 8 bolts to take the fans off anyway.
and all this talk about 'josh' is getting me confused. youre all like 'thanks josh' and im like 'wtf?' (my name is josh as well hahaha)
Posted 08 November 2004 - 12:58 PM
Posted 16 November 2004 - 04:24 PM
ok first off i used a good deal of rust penetrant on all the bolts, backing them out a bit- spraying them and tightening them back up just past finger tight and repeating teh process. still about 25% of teh bolts i removed snapped but i guess thats just from it being older and sitting for these last few months. that can be rigged and worked around i guess...
for the record yes the timing belt was sheared in half and looked like it took quite a chewing in the process. definitely the problem that it wouldnt run..
the real problem was uncovered after i removed the crank pulley. the shear pin on the crank spun a groove all the way around the inside hub of the pulley!!! not only that it messed up the groove in the crankshaft, i am not sure if a new shear pin will fit snugly in place anymore . from the looks of how it was put together i assume that someone had taken the timing belt of before because teh gaskets that hold the main plastic shroud (not the outer 2 pieces) was not seated properly at all and will need to be replaced as well. i am thinking that whoever did this replaced the (should be aluminum right?) shear pin with a steel one because it did quite some damage to the crank. so much that now that i have the pulley off i cannot even slide the timing gear off because the crank is distorted and probably mushroomed.
i can BARELY wiggle the timing gear but it wont budge. im going to have to get a gear puller and force it off, buy a whole new gear and pulley, hand-file down teh crank, and pray that there is still somewhat of a straight-cut groove under the timing gear to hold the pin steady because outward where the crank pulley sets there is a (small) chunk of the crank missing where the shear pin would rest up against. if i can get my digital camera data cable back from my ex i will post up some pictures. this is definitely not the best way to do things but like i said i will just force/pull off the gear and file teh crank down where its distorted until a new one will slide on.
well my original questoin was: where the hell is teh timing mark on the crank timing gear? the one i have is pretty dirty and it wasnt apparent but after seeing 777's pictures again closely i see that there is a liiiittle hash mark on one of those 6 notches i will just have to look closer. like i said i havent even got that gear off yet so its hard to see but once i get teh new gear and pulley it should be more apparent.
also when replacing teh shear pin it SHOULD be an aluminum one right??? im probably just going to pick-n-pull and get some off a subaru- can anyone let me know what years would be compatible with this 92? (what years/models share the same engine)
thanks in advance!!!
Posted 04 December 2004 - 03:55 PM
When I have found information on timing belts (like the US Subaru site) there seems to be a dozen belts! As far as I know EJ18, 20 & 22 are similar in that they take the same belt (same stroke?) but the WRX etc, which are usually 2.0l, take a different belt as they're DOHC.
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