chilly b

dunno. sorry!

OK. The Chilly B Carfax Office is now closed. Please, no more requests to run a free Carfax! Sorry. Busy day. Cheers!

sure. whaddayaneed?

Thanks for all the input. Took the car to a local auto parts store (Kragen). They did the load test and the alternator came up "normal". So, it looks like the trouble was, in fact, with the battery. Whew. Did I buy more battery than I need? Yeah, probably. But, at some point in the near future, I may install another amp to power a subwoofer and will be thankful for the extra juice. Plus, call me crazy, but the stereo now seems louder than before, as if the amp was being pushed with more power. Might be my imagination but if it's true, that's a sweet little bonus.

Alright, I'll go do it right now.

But that's my point. I replaced the battery and the "glowing idiot lights" are gone. Are you saying that it's possible that there remains an alternator problem that is being "masked" by now having a fully charged (but slowly draining) battery in the car? Let's assume for the moment that that's the case. How would I check out the truth of that? In any event, the battery needed to be replaced anyway so, even if there is a larger problem lurking elsewhere, as far as this afternoon goes, worst case is that I spent $70-$80 more on a battery than I needed. That's not a small amount of money, no, but I'm also not going to get completely bent out of shape about it. Because, like I said, a new battery of some kind needed to be put in there anyway. But let's say you're right and there actually is an undiagnosed alternator problem. Given that there's a new high-powered battery in the car, when and how will the problem show up? What should I be on the alert for in terms of first signs? In short, other than waiting for the idiot lights to begin blinking again, how do I tell whether my alternator is working? Thanks for the input!

Too late. While driving down the highway on the way to the audio shop to have them check the electrical connections, the car essentially died on the highway. No, it didn't completely stall but in quick succession most of the instrument panel warning lights came on, the instrument gauges stopped working, the stereo conked out, the A/C stopped, even the hazards and turn signals stopped working, and the car wouldn't go more than 5 miles an hour. Needless to say, I was alarmed. I limped along to the audio shop, they confirmed that the problem seemed to be a ************ty battery (with a Jan 04 manufactured date!) and I decided, screw it, just put in the Optima and be done with it. So they slapped it in and 20 minutes later (and $150 lighter), everything was working again and I was back in business. Could I have just gone to a local auto shop and bought a $70 battery that was just as good. Maybe. But, given that I found out yesterday that the $600 DIY job I was about to do had already been done a year ago (but forgotten by the previous owner), I don't mind potentially wasting an extra $70-$80 for piece of mind. Yes, the Optima may be overkill for my car right now but at least I know I can depend on it. And Tahoe ski season is just around the corner. And I'm not concerned about having bought the battery at an audio shop. As I said earlier, I checked the internet and $150 is actually a good price for the battery. Especially given that I needed the damned thing right now. Plus, the audio shop folks won't forget this when I come back for a subwoofer...and another amp. That's my news for the day. Thanks everyone for the input!

Checked with the dealer. Turns out the alternator had already been replaced "sometime in the past" by the previous owner. Speaking with the dealer, he suspects that all the new electrical equipment (head unit, amp, alarm system) is putting a strain on an old battery and he recommends I just buy a new battery. As I mentioned early, a mechanic recommended the same thing three weeks, when doing the pre-purchase inspection. So here's my question this afternoon. Spoke with the audio folks. They sell a battery called the Optima Yellowtop for $150. That's a pricey battery! Did an internet check and that's actually a good price for it. Anyone here know about this battery? It's supposed to be good for cars that have a lot of electrical draw on the system. But is this overkill for me? Need to know quickly, as I want to have a new battery in the car while the sun's still shining out here in California. Thanks!

I have a '97 Legacy Outback. So, how exactly to I go about getting this replaced "for free" under the protection of the recall? Does it matter that I only bought the car two weeks ago and was not the owner of the car when the recall was announced? (I have no idea what the "rules" of recalls are) Thanks!

Hi all - Hoping you can help me figure out whether I have a problem with my alternator. This morning, on my way into work, the battery charge light and brake light came on. This happened after I'd been on the road about 30 minutes. I did a quick search of the board and it seems that this is a good indication of imminent alternator failure. But... Yesterday I installed a new stereo head unit, amplifier and new car alarm system. Also had the guys replace a broken driver's side door pin switch. Any possibility that any of this electrical work has led to the warning lights coming on? I need to know asap because if it's something the audio guys did, I want them to fix it pronto but if its got nothing to do with them, obviously I don't want to be an rump roast, blaming them for something unrelated to their work. Assuming that it is the alternator, am I still eligible for the alternator recall (and, if so, what are the logistics)?: 1997 SUBARU LEGACY ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:ALTERNATOR/GENERATOR/REGULATOR Recall Date: MAY 15, 2000 Summary: THIS IS NOT A SAFETY RECALL IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE SAFETY ACT. HOWEVER, IT IS DEEMED A SAFETY IMPROVEMENT CAMPAIGN BY THE AGENCY. VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: PASSENGER VEHICLES. SOME OF THESE VEHICLES HAVE AN ALTERNATOR PROBLEM THAT CAN RESULT IN A LOSS OF CHARGING CAPABILITY. Consequence: IF THE ALTERNATOR FAILS, THE ALTERNATOR WARNING TELLTALE WILL ALERT THE DRIVER TO THE PROBLEM, GIVING AMPLE OPPORTUNITY TO SEEK REPAIR BEFORE A LOSS OF BATTERY POWER, WHICH, IF THE WARNING WERE IGNORED, COULD ULTIMATELY RESULT IN A LOSS OF VEHICLE POWER (ENGINE STALL). Remedy: DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE ALTERNATOR WITH A MODIFIED ALTERNATOR. OWNERS WILL ALSO BE CAUTIONED THAT, SHOULD THE ALTERNATOR TELLTALE WARNING LAMP ILLUMINATE, THEY MUST SEEK IMMEDIATE REPAIR TO AVOID THE EVENTUAL LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, WHICH COULD RESULT IN AN ENGINE STALL. Potential Units Affected: 223520 Notes: SUBARU OF AMERICA, INC. Thanks! Maybe I just need a new battery? (this was flagged by the mechanic when he did the pre-purchase inspection three weeks ago.) Also, what risks am I running by driving the car while the battery charge light is on?

Cool. That I can do. I was worried I'd have to take everything apart just to even see the timing belt. I'll take a look at it this weekend and post pictures. Thanks!

The service manager wouldn't give me a copy of the service record (citing privacy issues of the previous owner) but he let have a quick look. There was too much there for me to remember but one odd thing was an notation for an "idler belt" for $135. The service mgr called someone about it and he told me that they claimed it was a reference to the tensioner (which seemed odd and wrong to me). Any possibility that this "idler belt" is actually the timing belt? Or is there really an idler belt separate from the timing belt?

Hello again all - Thanks to all of those who gave me valuable input as I was deciding to buy my '97 Outback. Well, I bought the car last week for $4000 (which seems like a good deal, considering that it's in reasonably good shape, has only 129,000 miles and had the head gaskets replaced last year.) One of the reasons I talked the previous owner down so low is that, according to him, the timing belt was long overdue for a change and that's a pricey job. Based on input from folks here on the Board, I was planning on ordering the parts online and doing the job myself (replacing the timing belt, plus the related jobs of replacing the water pump, thermostat, gaskets, seals, pulley, tensioner, hoses, etc.) But here's the weird thing... This morning I visited the shop that did te head gasket work last year, simply to get their help in listing all the parts I would need to order to do the work on the car. I got the parts list, then went over to the service department to see if i could look at the service record from the head gasket job last year (the previous owner had lost the receipt and had no record of exactly what had been done last year). To my astonishment, the service manager showed me that, last year, not only had the head gaskets been replaced, but the shop had also replaced the water pump, gaskets, seals, pulley, idlers, tensioner, idler belt). Who-hoo! All that work I had planned on doing myself (and had deducted from the price of the car) has already been done! Previous owner spent over $3000 fixing up the car last year and, for some reason, only remembered the head gaskets being replaced. His bad memory is my financial gain! But here's the part that makes no sense. On the repair sheet from last year, there was a long long list of replaced parts but no mention of the timing belt being replaced. That makes no sense. Even the service manager is perplexed. Why would the shop (a reputable, well-respected local Subaru shop) do a $3000 repair job, replace all that stuff, and then NOT replace a $70 timing belt. Service manager wasn't around back then and has no explanation other than that the timing belt may have seemed fine and so they decided not to bother replacing it. Does that make sense? The more imporant question is this: Assuming that for some reason the timing belt wasn't replaced last year (i.e., the shop didn't just forget to include it on the replaced part list), should I go with the service manager's recommendation and just leave it alone? Or should I buy a new one and replace it anyway? I apologize for the length of this post but I really would like some knowledgable input and thought that the full context was important. Any input from the tech mavens on the board would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Ah. Didn't know if this needed to be specified any more than this. I saw another thread on timing belt replacement (for an older Subaru) and people were indicating very specific wrenches. For example, in a thread regarding replacing the timing belt on an '87 Subaru, someone named "Moosens" indicated: "Tools: 10mm,12mm,14mm sockets and box/open end 8mm if you want to take the alternator all the way out-disconnect battery first off!! Punch or screwdriver or equiv. for stopping the flywheel and stopping the fan clutch. Good to have some large Channel locks for the cam pulleys. Breaker bar w/22mm socket,good to have a large pipe over the bar for leverage." He actually went into quite a bit of detail in the thread: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=41833&highlight=timing+belt+tensioner Anyway, I was optimistically hoping someone had this same level of info for timing belt (and related item) replacement on a '97 Legacy Outback. Thanks!

Actually, the more I think about the broad DIY job, the more I like it. I'm no longer in the same income bracket I was in when I owned the Saab and really do need to shift out of my casual "pay the mechanic whatever he demands" mode. I'd rather "invest" the DIY savings in a good set of tools/supplies that I can use to do my own repairs and maintenance. Seems like it might be a good investment. So, as of right now, I think I'm going to bite the bullet and tackle the entire job at once. Having said that... will the Haynes manual indicate which tools I will need to use for the various parts of the job? And, no, I won't have another vehicle available while I'm in the guts of mine but there's a Kragen shop within easy biking distance!

OK. Just got off the phone with the mechanic who inspected the car last week. Based on what he says he'd replace if I brought the car to him, coupled with a quick internet search of prices, here's what I've turned up so far: Timing belt - $87 Timing belt idler (2, upper/lower) - $80 Sprocket idler - $40 Cam seals (4) - $40 Crankshaft seal (front) - $9 Oil pump o-ring - $4 Water pump - $70 Alternator/power steering belt - $14 Air conditioning belt - $13 Thermostat - $14 Thermostat gasket - $4 Air filter - $56 (someone in another thread recommended the K&N filter) Spark plugs (4) - $30 Hydraulic tensioner - $75 Tensioner pulley - $85 Radiator hose (upper) - $13 Radiator hose (lower) - $12 Total cost: approx $650 Does this sound right? Any parts missing? In addition to the parts, are there any auxiliary things I'll need (e.g., sealant)? And, very importantly, what specific tools will I need to do all this work? I just ordered the Haynes manual from Amazon and will, of course, read it carefully before ordering any parts. But want to get a ballpark idea from the experts here on the board. If this is right, then it's definitely worth my while to give it a shot. Thoughts? Thanks!

Ok, I'm intrigued. This sounds crazy enough that it just might work. Many questions: Given the DIY savings, I'd like to do as much as possible in one shot. Also, as I would be dismantling my only vehicle, I'd want to have all parts purchased and available upfront (don't want to discover halfway through that I need to wait a week for more vital parts to arrive), so... what all would I need for a "complete" replacement job? Based on conversations with various Bay Area mechanics, I was planning on having the following parts replaced: timing belt, fan belts, water pump, seals (5?), tensioners, idlers (2?), oil pump o-ring, thermostat. But these are just words to me at this point. Can someone tell me specifically which parts I would need to purchase before replacing all of these things? And, are there other things I haven't mentioned that should be replaced at the same time (since I'll already be in there)? Additionally, the car needs the tranny fluid flushed and the coolant flushed. Is that something i could do myself with little hassle? Finally, the car still needs the 120K service done (change oil, oil filter, fuel filter, air cleaner element, spark plugs, brake fluid). Is this also something I can easily do myself? I may realize in an hour that this is a ridiculous idea but given that I'm buying a nine-year old car, it might be a good idea to get comfortable getting down and dirty with it. Would appreciate thoughts/suggestions. Thanks.

Hmm... I've never been much of a DIYer (although, as a previous Saab owner, I should have been!), but I'm willing to give it a try, especially if it could possibly save me nearly $1000. But how complicated is the job and what special tools would I need? Is it realistic for a lunkhead like me, who can barely find the dipstick under the hood, to just read a manual and then perform complicated engine work? I'm dubious...

What's this "California" timing belt you mention? Is this something I'll need to specifically ask be installed or is it automatic in California? But why in the world would California use different timing belts than the rest of the county? (or am I just missing the joke?)

Hi again all - Brief vacation but now back in town. I haven't yet officially "bought" the car. Just a verbal handshake so far. We exchange cash/vehicle next week once the seller's back in town. Just want one last reality check before I part with my cash. I'll be paying $4500 for the car and, as I mentioned earlier, the timing belt needs to be replaced. Here in Northern California, timing belt replacement is about $400 - $475. In the big scheme of things, not terrible. But here's the kicker. Every shop I've spoken with also strongly recommends that, while I'm having the timing belt replaced, I ALSO replace: water pump, fan belts, seals, thermostat, oil pump seals, tensioner, idlers, etc, raising the total cost of the service to... $1400! Sweet lord. I suppose I ought not factor the total repair cost into the purchase price of the car (since the only thing that "needs" to be replaced is the timing belt) but give me a heads up. Does all this work really need to be done? Maybe the better question is, would I be an incredible fool to replace the timing belt and NOT do any of the other recommended work? As I also mentioned, the car still needs the 120K service done ($400-$500) but I'll wait on that. So, does all this extra expense turn my good purchase price into just an average (or perhaps even $hittty) deal? I guess the larger question is, when buying a used car, to what extent should a buyer factor in preventative maintenance costs that may not be "necessary" but are "highly prudent"? In my case, the necesssary maintenance (timing belt) is only around $500 but the extra preventative services are an additional $1500! Help me think this one though. I'm having buyer's remorse before I've even bought the car. Looking forward to your input. Thanks!

Thanks for all the advice and input. Saw the car yesterday and had it inspected this afternoon. Very minor cosmetic damage to one of the fenders. One of the fog lights is broken (cracked). The passenger side wind deflector is broken. Engine-wise, as I said earlier, the head gaskets were replaced a year ago. Inspection showed that the transmission needs to be flushed, the coolant needs to be flushed/replaced and the fan belt is cracked. Timing belt doesn't appear to ever have been replaced. 120K service yet to be done (car has 128K miles on it). Interior, car shows normal wear and tear for an eight-year old SUV-ish car that's been used for its intended purposes. So, we settled on a price of $4500 and I am now a proud Subaru owner. I think it's a good deal. Blue Book (private party) on the car is $5155 in "fair" condition, which already takes into account the minor body damage, cracked light and wear and tear. The $650 decrease from Blue Book accomodates the immediate need to replace the timing belt and flush the transmission. The coolant will be flushed as part of the repair. I'll also have the fan belt replaced when the timing belt work is done. (May also replace the water pump, seals, oil pump seal, etc. at the same time). The 120K service needs to be done but doesn't seem imminent so I'll probably wait a bit on that. I'll also hold off on fixing the cosmetic body damage and the fog light. The broken wind deflector I'll probably just remove unless I can find the part cheap somewhere. OK. How did I do? Given all of the above, is $4500 a fair price for the car? (He was originally asking $5500.) Should I sleep well tonight or should I spend the rest of evening kicking myself around the room?

Contemplating two different used Legacy Outbacks and would love your opinions, based on preliminary information: ASSUMING EVERYTHING ELSE IS EQUAL (big assumption, I know, but go with me), which of the two would you say is the better "deal": 1. 1997 Legacy Outback. 128K miles; cloth seats; automatic transmission; head gaskets replaced a year ago (which should mean this won't be a problem again?); general maintenance done on schedule; 120K maintenance needs to be done and scheduled timing belt replacement still needs to be done. Asking price: $5500 2. 1997 Legacy Outback. 168K miles; leather seats; automatic transmission (replaced last year); general maintenance done on schedule. Asking price: $5500 So, I suppose my question is, given that the asking prices are the same, what's of greater value: the fact that the head gaskets have already been replaced on one or that the transmission's already been replaced on the other (and it has leather seats)? I realize there's a LOT more that will need to go into the comparison but what are thoughts/opinions based on the info presented so far? Thanks!

Thanks for the continued input. Very helpful! Here's the owner's further explanation of why the head gaskets were replaced last year (following overheating, poss. due to a reversed fan): "The overheating led to early leakage, we got the car in the shop with the HGs on their last leg. The technician showed me the amount of eating from the inside they took and showed some of the early leaks. At the time, it was their explanation for the overheating. When they finished with the headgasket, their realize the car was still running hot, until someone noticed that a fan wasn't blowing in the right direction. They fixed it and the problem was gone." So... it looks like I originally misunderstood the explanation. There was an overheating problem, when the car was brought in to check on why, it was discovered that there was early leakage of the HGs and the "preventative maintenance" was to replace the head gaskets before they blew. That seems like a reasonable explanation to me. Sound good to you experienced Subaru owners? Also, found out that the last smog check was in April 2004 (last time it was required for registration). But in California, sellers are required to provide evidence of current (within 90 days) smog certification, so I don't anticipate any issues here. One other question regarding the head gaskets. Since they were replaced last year, is this something I'm going to need to even think about for a long while? I mean, if you replace the HGs after they've blown once, are you set or do these things blow multiple times? Anything else I should be inquiring about? I'm going to test drive the car on Thursday. Any additional input/thoughts before then would be most appreciated. Thanks!

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Regarding the replacement HG as "preventive maintenance", I may have misspoke. Rather than my paraphrasing it, here's the exact reply I got from the owner: "We've had a head gasket replacement done by [...], a shop that has been recommended to us by many Subaru owners (they're expensive :-) but very professional and very thorough with their repairs.) What they discover happened is that during regular maintenance done somewhere else, someone mounted a fan reverse and that cause a bit of heating -- to be on the safe side before a long two weeks trip in NoCal last year, we had the head gaskets replaced and the fan fixed (the repair was recommended by [the repair shop].) I would say that our car did not exhibit the head gasket problems that seems to plague some of the 2.5 liter engine (from what I gather, it really is a hit or miss.) A further note on that: my understanding of the situation is that the original head gasket seal was not the best Subaru could come up with. It appears that when head gaskets need fixing, the new Subaru parts that are used are the one that should have gone into the engine in the first place -- but Subaru never admitted to anything. We went skiing almost all week-ends this season and we haven't had any problem with the car." So, that what the owner says about it. Does that explanation make more sense regarding the replacement of the head gaskets? Or is there still something fishy I should probe more on? Thanks!

UPDATED, SEE BELOW... Hi all - Recovering former Saab loyalist, contemplating entering the unknown world of Subarus. Found a 1997 Legacy Outback with 128,000 miles. Owner asking $5500. Ad only says that the car runs great, is dependable and that the owner "took good care of it (regular oil changes, etc)". Obviously, I need to know more. But, before I contact the owner, I want to find out what questions I should ask (beyond the obvious questions about major accidents, current mechanical problems, etc). A quick search of this forum indicated that I might want to know if/when the timing belt or water pump were replaced and if the oil pump's been resealed. What other questions should I be asking? A number of posts mentioned a head gasket issue with this model year. What do I need to be concerned about regarding the head gasket and what questions should I ask the current owner regarding it? Finally, assuming there are no major problems, is $5500 a fair price for the car? I plan to contact the owner within the next day or so, so any quick and informative responses would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! UPDATE: After email exchange with the owner, here's what I know: 1. Head gaskets replaced last year with the newest Subaru HGs. Not HG problem at the time, just preventative maintenance while the mechanic was in the engine replacing a fan that had been installed incorrectly during previous scheduled maintenance. 2. Water pump replaced last year. 3. Automatic transmission but no problems so far. 4. Brakes replaced last fall. 5. New all-weather tires put on last fall. 6. Owner says car is due for a timing belt change. 7. Also, says spark plug/wire replacement should be coming up soon. 8. Carfax reports that car was originally purchased in NJ as a corporate lease vehicle. About 50,000 miles put on the car before being sold to current California owner in Aug 2000. Carfax report is clean. So...based on this new info, is $5500 still a fair price? What additional questions should I be asking? Thank you all SO much for your help with this!