skizix

Anybody have the reistance numbers for an '02 2.5 OBW (105,000 miles) coil pack? I tested mine, and got 13.73k-ohms across the plug wire terminals. Front and back were within 0.03k-ohms of each other, which I assume is a good sign. For the primary, I got 1.42 ohms across the two rear-most pins. All other combinations of pins had infinite resistance. THIS ARTICLE quotes the numbers for a 2.5 liter as: secondary: between 10k and 24k ohms primary: 0.40 to 1.00 ohms So, looks ok for the secondary (but is it good or bad to be at the low end?), but my primary appears to be out of range. Can anyone confirm if my coil is out of range? What does it mean if the primary is out of spec? Fried igniter? Also: if it IS within spec, does this mean my coil is necessarily good? I am having some bucking issues at low speeds only (e.g. parking lots, slow-and-go traffic, etc.) and sporadic misfires (no codes stored). The coil does not appear to have any cracks. New wires and plugs. Any other way to test the coil? I saw this blurb in an ebay ad for this same coil pack (used -- no thanks): "THESE COILS HAVE A HABIT OF ARCING THROUGH THE TOWERS ONCE THEY GET OLD, IF YOUR CAR IS BUCKING...TRY THIS." I'd hate to drop $100 for no effect, but I sure would like to resolve my driveability issues, and coil pack is my best guess at the moment. In a minute, I'm going to try some dielectric grease on the coil terminals? Anybody else use that?

Well, my '02 has a grey connector with an unusual way to undo it. No idea if it's the same, but if it is... ...the grey part is "hinged" on one end (the non-sensor end), and swings out of the way like a door, once you compress the tabs. Then the connector unplugs easily. When you re-install, make sure the hinged part is seated properly on it's round projections (the pivots/hinges). It comes off of those pretty easily when the "door" is open.

Thanks for clarification. I'd always wondered how plug wire insulation could be adequate for anything, given how easy it is to get zapped. Anyway, on one side, one wire was laying on the other (i.e. all but parallel) for a good 4 inches, and in direct contact in 2 places. It was only an occasional miss, and never stored a code (my ECU memory was clean as of this morning). No backfires or anything. But it seemed to have caused some low-speed driveability problems. In any case...I hope the crossed wires were causing problems, 'cause otherwise I've got other problems! Can't wait to see if the ECU flash does anything noticable.

Well, Scorpion sells an ultra-low crawler gear, that is intended to replace 5th (the idea is also: you'll be putting bigger tires on as well, so don't need as big a top gear anyway). So I would say it is definitely do-able. However, it is not guaranteed that all that hassle will net you significantly better mileage, or even better at all. Throttle position has a greater impact on fuel efficiency than rpm's. E.g. if you you have to floor it in 5th to maintain speed on a given hill, but you only have to bury it slightly to get up the same hill at speed in 4th...your mileage in 4th on that hill will certainly be better, despite higher rpm's. I realize you're most likely talking about cruising on the flats. And you probably would see some benefit. My point is that it's probably not going to make as big a difference as you're thinking. So I guess the question is: how long are you going to have to drive, with slightly improved mileage, to see a positive return on the time and/or $$$ it will take to accomplish your goal (significant, IME)? Geez, I wish they offered dual-range trannys here in the States! Don't think they have since the '80's.

OEM plugs and wires. Being OEM, I was surprised the wires were such a tight fit (they were stretched so tight, I thought they were going to pull off the coil). And especially because it was only two of the four that were tight. I thought I might have gotten the wrong wires. But like I said, a couple of months of under-hood heat seems to have relaxed them -- they fit like I'd expect now. I put 'em back in the clips, and pulled the slack down towards the heads, where they can't cross.

Cool. As I type, I'm getting the CEL flash. TSB myass, it's going to be $98 (only free up to 80000 miles, which I'm past). Damn dealer. Whatever, it is supposed to address hesitation and surge issues, of which I do have some remaining. So with the crossed-wire miss and the flash, hopefully I'm getting there now. I sold off my '90 legacy (235,000 miles) the other day. After driving only my '02 OBW for three months, it was truly depressing to realize that my super beat-up '90 drove way smoother, better, etc. Getting close w/ the new one now though. So anyway...think I ruined my plug wires? They look ok.

Bump. What, nobody? Opinions, theories? What I can confirm is this: while the plug wires are of course insulated...the voltage is high enough that the current can easily cross said insulation. Try touching a plug wire on a running engine some time -- it is not entirely unlike being kicked by a horse (I confirmed this for myself as a kid, with a lawnmower; and then last year, **after** warning him it would happen, watched my friend get shocked in this very manner by his Forrester, not once, but twice in a row ) So I'm guessing that having the plug wires touching each other could cause the spark impulse to take the wrong path. Anybody else think this might cause an occasional miss?

Ok, so: recently acquired an '02 OBW, 2.5l, 5MT. Has had some driveability issues, and some attempts to resolve it, with mixed results, as chronicled HERE: Well, I was just about to bring it in to my regular mechanic, in the hopes of a pro wrench driving/riding in it, with a probe attached, to see what might be screwy, in runtime. In the meantime, I'd gotten to thinking it was maybe a coil, so I decided to check the terminals for deposits (recently did new plugs and wires, and cleaned significant deposits off of one terminal). Well, when I went to pull the wires off the coil, I noticed that the plug wires were crossed (on the correct terminals, but touching, maybe 4" from the coil) on both sides. See, when I put in new plug wires, one on each side seemed very tight, like I had to really stretch it to get it into all the little clips/holders. I guess over time the heat stretched 'em out a bit, and they'd popped out of the holders, and on both sides, one wire was sitting on top of the other, touching. Coil terminals clean, BTW. So, the question is: would having wires laying on one another have been causing my intermittent misfires (at least that's what it felt like -- CEL never lit, and haven't pulled codes since)? Other question: is this likely to have fried my new wires (likely less than 2000 miles in this state)? Still have some lesser oddness, and looking into an ECU flash/software upgrade from dealer as a TSB-repair (at the suggestion of my "real" mechanic). But uncrossing the wires seems to have smoothed things out considerably. Or is it likely all in my head (the improvement, that is -- intermittent problems can get pretty psychological)? Can crossed plug wires (in new condition) cause misfires/driveability issues?

I can be good to have a bottle of compressed air (dust-off, etc.) with a tiny hose (a la wd40) to concentrate the spray, handy, especially if you're doing this away from your driveway. The reason: if you soak the harness connectors to the injector(s) (easy to do), they will short out, and that cylinder(s) will miss, causing the car to run like absolute crap. Blast out the connector to dry it, and drive away happy. Letting it sit will obviously dry it out as well, obviously, but it can take a while.

Yeah, I bet Subaru wishes it could build an engine as "hearty" as GM It has nothing to do with being able to build a "hearty enough" engine. It is a design choice. A higher compression engine requires higher octane fuel to prevent pre-ignition (that is what high-octane fuel is: it ignites at a higher temperature, i.e. you can compress it further, in atomized form, before it spontaneously combusts). All other things being equal, a high-compression design squeezes more power out of the same displacement engine. It is not like it is tricky to design an engine with low enough compression to take regular-octane fuel (quite the opposite -- tougher to design a high-compression engine that remains reliable, does not overheat, blow gaskets, etc.). The H6 can compensate for pre-ignition, running on regular, by retarding the timing (basically, the spark is ignited a tiny bit **before** the piston reaches the extent of it's compression stroke). An sti engine could as well, except it's design is limit-pushing enough that there is not enough "wiggle room" to compensate by timing adjustments (if you retard the timing too much, the engine winds up "fighting" itself, i.e. the fuel mix is ignited while the cylinder is still moving upwards, resulting in stupid power loss and destructive forces). BTW, there is nothing magic about turbo'd engines that makes them need premium by definition. Pressurizing the intake does increase compression, but one could certainly still put a roomy enough enough head on there so as to not require high-octane fuel. But then, why bother with the added complexity of turbo parts if you're not already maxing out power via high compression? As for "cramming" six cylinders into a boxer design...not an issue either. Porsche may be the only other engine doing this, but: what other builder uses the boxer design anyway? (ok, bmw motorcycles)

Well, you might think about a new front O2 sensor. It most definitely helped with hesitation on takeoff I was having. That is pretty much gone, and that is a big relief. Anyway...what I've got left is starting to feel like a fuel problem for sure now. New symptom -- probably overlaps with all the others. On mild acceleration at low speeds, it is bucking slightly, like a slight random hesitation. Almost like a misfire, but way to many times not to light the CEL (I'd think anyway). Overall, the car is driving pretty darn well, now, but something is definitely still not quite right. Does this sound like TPS still, or a fuel problem? If the latter...car has a fresh fuel filter, and I've run a can of techron and a can of BG44K , one each in my last two tanks. What else should I be thinking, fuel-delivery wise? All I can think of is fuel pump...? Is that at all likely ('02 OBW, 103k miles), and how would I test it: fuel line pressure alone?

Sounds pretty simple to me. If your clutch is slipping, your engine is turning more times than are being transmitted to your tranny input shaft. So some of the work being done by your engine is going up in smoke (figuratively and/or literally). To put it another way: if you were running a marathon, your miles-per-bagel would decrease if you were running on ice in bacon-soled shoes, rather than on pavement with fresh rubber soles. Make sense?

TPS had occurred to me. Only thing is: how to explain that the problem goes away for a few days after an ECU reset? TPS does not seem like something the ECU can substitute a default value for, right? What does the ECU do in response to the TPS signal anyway? Open and close the IAC only? Fuel mixture would mostly be decided by MAP signal, I would think, not TPS. Is that more or less correct? BTW, it does feel like my IAC opens and closes a little late sometimes, but I did clean it, and my idle never drops out, so i'm assuming IAC is functioning ok. Can the TPS be tested? Kind of a spendy part to replace blindly. What, for example, would I look for if I plugged in a probe while driving? Can the cleaned with reasonable ease? I thought I remembered someone saying not to mess with it -- can o' worms. But, being merely a potentiameter (correct?), it should be fairly easy to clean, and it should respond well to cleaning, I'd think.

For Legacys: the bad head gasket problem persisted through 01, I believe. The goop/not-so-bad head gasket problem was 01 and 02. I would lean towards an 03 or 04, and with $12k to work with...'03. A GT is always nice, and an outback is too, depending on what your needs are. But the plain old Legacy sedan is a sweet ride, overshadowed by it's zooty stablemates. And as such, the market for them is relatively undervalued -- plenty of good deals to be had. Not much given up to the GT in those years (no more power -- just trim and tighter suspension, mostly; not like the 05's or late '90's GT's which have a different motor/turbo from the base model). So if you can live with that, and can live without the modest offroad advantage had by the SUS...a Legacy sedan has great bang for buck. My advice would be an '03 legacy sedan (no gt or outback). Not having looked recently...careful shopping should net you a real nice car, minus most of the nagging suby headaces, in the 60-70k miles range, I'd think. Pretty casual mileage for any suby. Good luck.

Well, crap! Perhaps I re-rang in too soon. I drove the car just now, and experienced one of the symptoms I was having in the first place: the jerk on transition from acceleration to engine-braking and vice-versa. Just a few hours ago I wasn't feeling that, but now it's back. I was cruising down my 25mph street, accelerating up to ~30 after turning onto it, and eased up on the pedal slowly, as I was done accelerating....**lurch** the car decelerates abruptly, chunking me forward in my seat. So I play with it, easing down on the pedal ever so carefully, and then **lurch** it abruptly jerks forward, and then starts accelerating smoothly. I played that little game the rest of the way home, and no matter how light a touch I put into accelerating and decelerating, it jerks hard into go or coast mode. The pisser is: tomorrow when I drive to work, I betcha this will not be the case...then, some time tomorrow or the next day, it'll go back into this mode for a while. This is not the "boing" problem. But it does cause the boing problem. But I don't care so much about the boing problem when this shiity driveability crap is going on. Really sucks in slow-and-go traffic, and is just annoying in general. I really want to like this car. WTF IS GOING ON HERE???

nipper, I finally managed to change the fuel filter last weekend -- same wrench session as the O2 sensor (I could not budge the hoses no matter what, last month, then got a great tip: shove a small screwdriver in there to make a gap, and squirt some silicone in there and work it around. Worked like a charm; lubed the new one up too to make it easier next time). Anyway, when I started this thread, I had an intermittent fuel-related-feeling lurch, as described above, but somewhere between the O2 sensor, fuel filter, and some BG44k, that seems gone. That lurch was quite sharp, and only one pulse at a time. This bounce definitely feels mechanical (to me, at least). On sudden accel or decel, it is like the push (or pull) of the drivetrain is set to bouncing -- real springy feel -- and gradually settles down. The direction is back and forth (accel/decel), not up and down. The frequency is about like saying "boing, boing, boing..." casually. If I am smooth on the pedal, it does not do it at all. Happens more easily and takes longer to settle down with A/C on. Does not feel like suspension (e.g. is not induced by hitting a bump; susp. seems nice and damp). The stick (5MT here) does move visibly back and forth while the boing is happening, but not very much. No clunks or anything associated. Just a boingy acceleration when the drivetrain is torqued abruptly. Hope that helps, description-wise. Not so easy to capture in words. So, any thoughts? (and again...THANKS)

Hey folks, thanks very much for all the input. I did replace the front O2 sensor, and it has definitely helped. Hesitation on takeoff seems to be gone. Sorry I waited so long to get back, but I wanted to make sure the effect was real, since my driveability issues seemed to go away for a few days after resetting the ECU. The fix seems to be sticking though. So, it definitely helped, and I'm definitely getting close to getting this car dialed in. Still a little funk though... If anyone's still reading: sometimes when I do something abrupt, like suddenly mat the accelerator when I'm coasting along at 2k rpm in 2nd (or if I let up sudenly after hard accel.)...the drivetrain "grabs" a bit, which is fine. What is not so fine is: it grabs, and then bounces along for a few seconds -- not a sharp jerky lurch, so much, as a bouncy lurch. Feels like I'm boinging on the clutch springs, or.... With the A/C on, it is worse, and can go on bouncing for quite a few seconds. Any ideas? I'm thinking maybe tranny mounts. Does that sound likely? How would one assess the condition of tranny mounts? Motor mounts?

My '90 5MT legacy sedan, with 230,000m gets right around 30mpg with mixed city/highway driving. Hard driving with passengers/gear in the mountains, or lots of shiitty gridlock driving, yeilds ~25mpg. So yours sounds low to me, but I suppose the AT takes it's toll, at least to some degree.

Wow, thanks nipper. That is very useful info indeed. The running-ok-while-cold phenom was throwing me off, thinking it might be a bad temp sensor or... Makes sense now. Still wonder why it runs well for some days after resetting the ECU, but I suppose it probably takes a conservative approach to engine management whilst gathering a baseline set of data. Ok, so you've suggested replacing both sensors? But from what else you've said, it sounds like I'll be good to go with just a new front, at least until the CEL lights up again. Correct? That'd be my preference, being a bit short on $$$ right now. Any downside to just doing the front O2S until further notice? Thanks much.

Well, yeah Matt...I can't count the number of times I've found mechanics @ shops to have been wrong (like telling me I need a new clutch when I'd changed it myself a week previous and it was working perfectly...etc.,etc.). That's why I'm here! So it sounds like definitely the front O2S is the one to change first. Let me know if I have this correct: feedback from the front O2S influences the ECU's control of fuel mixture (and timing?); the rear O2S does not influence the ECU's decisions at all, other than to turn on the CEL if it senses the cat not doing it's job. So the front O2S would be the one to change to address drivability, and the rear I assume I would not touch unless the CEL stays on (and I don't suspect a bad cat). Is that about right? BTW, one mechanic suggested a new cat (to fix my CEL/code), but the other suggested an "emissions system flush". So I'm going to go ahead and get a new O2S, and not deal with the cat until further notice, BUT...anyone heard of the cat-flush??? Aparently it's a non-retail product (needs some special applicator tool) made by JB (Justice Brothers). Sounds kind of odd. Mechanic said they have a "75% success rate" fixing bad-cat codes with that kit. Any opinions on that? Thanks folks!

Ok, so I've spoken to two shop mechanics now, both of whose opinions I trust, and neither believes it is the O2 sensor. They both insist that an O2 sensor that were causing drivability issues would definitely throw a code. Seeing as I've positioned myself to both as ready to purchase one, and they both advised against the purchase, I do believe that they both are confident in that opinion. However, I'm still skeptical, mostly based on evidence on this and other discussion boards. So...has anyone found that a new O2 fixed definite drivability problems, and NOT had an 02 sensor code recorded in their ECU (not necessarily talking about a C.E. light -- some codes are thrown without switching on the light -- but actually no 02S-related code)? Both mechs also believe that my inefficient-cat code/light could not be caused by sickly O2 sensor(s), despite that scenario making sense to me. Anyway, that light has remained off after 3 days and 100+ miles. Would that make sense if my cat were really on it's way out? Anyway, I've decided to hold of on spendy fixes for right now, and try some injector cleaner. Dumped a can of Techron in there yesterday, and will probably follow up with some BG44K in my next tank. Hadn't thought of it before, but it does seem like fouled injectors could be causing all of my symptoms (except the cat CEL). Feedback, anyone?

Where can I get one of these pie-lauchers for tailgaters???

Hi folks. Not a new member, but haven't posted for a few years, so I might as well be. Yes, I've done much searches/reading here, but gotten no firm ideas, and hoping someone can pick up on the nuances of my situation. Warning: this is long, but please bear with me (EFI diagnosis is subtle -- trying to give details)... I recently bought a 2002 OBW, 2.5/4cyl, 5MT, 100,000 miles. Mostly quite happy with the car, but something is not quite right. Symptoms: 1) I've got a hesitation on takeoff. Like I give it some juice, it bogs down for just about 1 second, then takes off like it should. 2) I've got an "anti-hesitation" when I let up on the accelerator, transitioning to engine-braking -- like I let up on the accel., it engine-brakes properly for a sec, then surges (minor, but definitely there) slightly for just a second, then settles down to normal. 3) I've got an intermittent jerkiness on low-speed accel. changes. Like, coasting along at low speeds in 1st or 2nd, a careful, gradual push on the accel. pedal will result in a sudden **grab**, and the car will lurch forward; at other times it is a buttery smooth transition. The opposite happens too: going from pedal down slightly at low speeds, gradually to engine-braking mode, the car will jerk abruptly into deceleration, no matter how carefully I feather the accel-pedal. Other times it's buttery smooth. Note that I'm not talking about any involvement of the clutch here -- fully engaged in these #3 scenarios (in scenario #1, I sometimes have to feather the clutch and give more than optimal accel-pedal to compensate for the hesitation). 4) When I'm cruising at a constant speed on a flat road (i.e. not accelerating or decelarating, just holding a very steady throttle), the car pushes and pulls just slightly, as if I were up and down on the pedal, no matter how much I concentrate on holding it steady. 5) Steady acceleration sometimes feels slightly "notchy", i.e. not smooth, all the way through the power band -- not talking hesitation now, but just sorta slightly "grabby". Not a big deal for driveability, but just does not feel quite "right", and seems like a clue. The car drives great on the highway; mileage seems fine (26-27mpg, @ ~66% highway miles). However, stop-and-go traffic is pretty darn annoying at times. Other clues: the problem seems far less prevalent, but not entirely absent, with a cold engine (I do get minor clutch judder then sometimes, but I'm really not so concerned about that -- not my first subaru). Also, when I reset the ECU (done that 3 times now), the problems pretty much go away for a few days, then creep back in, in their intermittent ways. Problems are all amplified with the A/C on (not too surprising, I guess). Also: after having these problems, but with no codes thrown for a couple of months...last week I got a persistent CEL. I was almost psyched, thinking this might tell me what was causing my car to drive crappily, but mechanic (who pulled the code for free, but apparently did not reset ECU) said it was coincidental -- front catalytic conv. code, which according to him should not affect driveability. I asked him if he thought it could be, say, an O2 sensor reading badly but not failing entirely, causing the ECU to infer a bad cat. He says no, it's the cat (but not necessarily trying to sell me -- says I don't need to worry about replacing the cat 'till I want to). Things I've done: today I reset the ECU, and the CEL, went off, and has remained off. Also, previous to that, I've replaced plugs and wires, air filter (dropped in a K&N) and cleaned the IAC (it did not look very gummed up at all, but...). All seemed to help some. I haven't done fuel filter yet (I would, but I can't seem to get the hoses off without damaging them -- may have to pay someone, which is a little embarrassing; any advice on that is appreciated). Plugs and wires definitely helped; I did have an occasional misfire, sans code, I think;felt it a couple of times, and one coil terminal had carbon/corrosion. Plugs looked a bit burnt too. Ok, SO........I'm thinking I've got one of the following: 1) bad/slow, but not dead, O2 sensor(s). 2) Screwed up TPS. Can I clean this thing without wrecking it? Is a new one nasty expensive? I did clean it's elec. connectors, btw -- didn't seem to help. 3) Bad cat(s). 4) OTHER??? The cats seem the obvious choice, given the code thrown, and it's what the mechanic recommends. But that's $$$, and somehow I don't quite believe it ('specially since the problems take a brief vacation when I reset the ECU -- gotta be a sensor, not mechanical, right?). I'm thinking of just going ahead and doing new O2 sensor(s) -- starting with front -- but I'll feel like an idiot if that expenditure improves nothing (despite 100k miles, mechanic says he doesn't think that's it, and says no, do not replace O2 sensors pre-emptively; at least if he is wrong, he does seem honest/non-greedy). Same for TPS: bummer to buy a new one if I don't need it (again...CAN I SAFELY CLEAN IT AND IS CLEANING LIKELY TO HELP?). Please let me know if you feel like you know what's going on, and/or what to do first here. My budget is tight (payed cash for this car, and it kinda cleaned me out; my intention was to get the most car I could w/o financing -- need to get my first mortgage later this year and didn't want a loan hanging out there). I am at a loss, apart from blindly replacing sensors. Sorry for such a long post, and...thanks!

<edit>...oops, didn't see problem was already solved.