Oh EA82, how you...put confused looks on my face

[man on the moon]

Ok. I am fed up and confused, and just need one freaking piece of information that the book, a neighborhood mechanic, and the dealer (yes, the DEALER) have not been able to tell me. I think someone here may know, though. I hope.

 

About three weeks ago now I replaced the timing belts. There is a brief thread about that somewhere, but it's not important--I put the things on and tightened it all up and got it running.

 

About a week later I went out and *LUNK* goes the motor. No good. Had to run to work, but got to it a few days later. Reset the belts (figured it was a tensioner/skipped tooth). Got it running. Got the car to an emissions test as license plates were due. Opened the hood while I was in line, to see if I could retard the timing a wee bit (it was running faster than I wanted)--normally this is no biggie...

 

Put my socket on the retard/advance loosener bolt thingy on the disty and the car sputtered and died! I didn't even get to loosen the bolt all the way!

 

I fought the car, and the car won. I called a tow truck and took it to a local shop he recommended, and my insurance approved (I was way out of my neighborhood). Before he came, though, I fought the car, as I said. Tried starting, got it running rough a couple times, but only with gas. Let the gas off or turn it off and it wouldn't start again without a lot of work. Kept not firing gas (put paper down by the injector, it stayed dry, etc).

 

The ECU threw me a set of codes, I'll list them here but should preface by saying they weren't all at once, or continuously. Sometimes they came, then I would undo/redo the battery and they wouldn't return for several starting attempts. Then they would come, clear, come, etc.

 

The codes I got were:

 

11-Crankshaft position sensor

13-Crankshaft reference pulse thingiemabob (not the technical name, my Chilton's is at home)

55-EGR Temp thingy (California only)

 

51-Neutral Safety Switch in on position (or some such). That is the kicker because...drumroll...I have a manual!

 

Now other info: it is a California car, though I put a non-California motor in it last summer. That *probably* explains the EGR code. I am not too worried about that code in any case.

 

The local shop I took it to fiddled a few days with it and ultimately told me it was just my rotor. They replaced it, and "it runs fine now" (it does, I drove it around for a while).

 

Not satisfied a bad rotor could cause codes 11 and 13 I took it to the dealer. The dealer told me he can't check the car because it's not the stock (California) engine the computer wants, and further "you removed the main radiator fan so I can't idle it to check it..." (the electric fan is out until I am satisfied I am done with the belts), and he commented on a bunch of other mods I've done with the car (a/c is out, dash is in pieces, etc). On the upside, I didn't have to pay the $90 diagnosis fee and got to shoot the breeze with a dealer tech for a while.

 

So...can a bad rotor and/or cap cause codes 11 and 13? (The crankshaft position and reference pulse codes). I am dubious. The first shop was sure that was all it was. The dealer tech said it could be a sensor OR wiring (my thought) but was not allowed to work on the car unless he 'went all the way' (reset everything to OEM, which was a few hundred bucks BEFORE he could even work on the real problem). He also commented that there may be ghosts in the code/computer as it is an older car. I don't want to spend $350 replacing the distributor and ECU...but otoh I *really* don't want to spend that on a tow...

 

Any thoughts? I feel dumb for asking, but figure I can't hurt anything by throwing it out there.

[man on the moon]

I should add that the car IS running, and once I got home I messed around with the distributor and sensor wiring harness trying to get it to stall the car again...no dice. It ran like the champ that it is/was/is. I am so lost...anyway, I'll shut now and wait.

 

I am also baffled as to the neutral safety switch, don't know if I mentioned that. I told the ECU "I DON'T HAVE A NEUTRAL SAFETY SWITCH", then I reset the computer and it didn't come back, but I was still baffled. Hoping someone knows more than I.

 

Ok, really shutting up this time.

[turbo5speedgl]

Had the same issue it was the sensors in the distributor swapped it out with a junkyard one and runs great. Yours prolly just has bad dirty connectors

[MilesFox]

you will get ode 11 and 13 anytime you are pulling codes and the car is NOT running.

 

I would suggest the ign amplifier on the coil braket if a no spark issue after warm, but works again after sitting a bit.

 

I would suggest coolant temp sensor if the car rund good until warm, and then wont idle or start without the pedal.

 

You got spfi or mpfi turbo? 85-86, 87, or 88-94?

[man on the moon]

This is a 91 SPFI. Not sure what year the motor came out of (it's a replacement) but it was a Loyale, so still falls in the 88-94 set. I have not yet been able to duplicate the situation, so I have no further information. Good to know both codes will show when the car is not starting...still curious as to why it was having trouble.

 

The engine was at running temperature, running fine until I put pressure on the bolt to 'release' the distributor (the ones that allow it to rotate, not remove it). I fiddled and got it to start while hot, then it sat for a while and would not start again. However, when the mechanic tried it, it started just fine. Then they replaced the rotor and told me that was my entire problem! I was/am skeptical, though Miles' opinion goes a long way (I lurk here a LOT). I may try the disty thing, but let me try cleaning the contacts first. May be a day or two as we are probably going to have 12+ hour days at work all week if today was any indication.

 

I actually have an old distributor from another Loyale I had at one point, may try that if it doesn't prove to be one of the other things mentioned. I have a multi-meter and will also check the temp sensor and...other thing that slipped my mind just now.

[man on the moon]

Actually, funny note on the neutral safety switch code.

 

After talking to the dealer tech we decided the EGR code is probably due to the ECU looking for a California engine and seeing a not-CA one. That's fine, it passed emissions and otherwise runs fine so I don't care about that one too much. But I didn't even think about the second part of the motor swap--that it came out of an automatic (and I have a five speed).

 

We swapped in a flywheel/clutch and that was it. But maybe the ECU is expecting a neutral safety switch...? Not sure how it would know, but I can think of several feasible explanations. If it wanted to start but couldn't, might it have cycled through the neutral safety switch code while looking for a problem?

[Ricearu]

if I am correct, they have a neutral safety on the transmission for cruise and stuff. mine threw this code, my cruise didn't work, and would start without pushing in clutch so Im pretty sure thats why

[RapidElastic]

Neutral safety switches exist on manuals. Its on the clutch pedal and makes sure you have the clutch pressed down before you start the car. Almost all manuals have it, except Volkswagens from what i know.

[Gloyale]

Okay......clearing up misinformation

Neutral switch, starter safety switch, adn the crusie clutch swtich are NOT the same. 3 different switches O.K.?

 

Nuetral Switch is for both manuals and autos. Grounds out whenever the trans is in neutral. Mounted on trans in manuals, in shifter for autos. Switch allows the engine to idle without stalling. If trans is in gear, and thorttle is zero, no gas is injected, momentum of car keeps engine turning. But when in neutral, the ECU needs to inject a bit of gas, even when throttle is zero. A faulty neutral switch can cause stalling and idling problems. However, it is a frequent "ghost Code" like 11 and 13, and will come up alot if you are checking codes without actually drivng the car though a cycle.

 

Clutch switch is used by Cruise control system. mounted on clutch pedal. normally closed contacts complete a circuit, then when the clutch is depressed, it breaks the circuit canceling cruise. this switch is not monitored by the ECU.

 

Safety swtich (starter interlock) is also mounted on clutch pedal. NOrmally open, until clutch is depressed completing the circuit for the starter. Not used by ECU for engine operation.

 

I don't think the neutral switch code has anything to do with the no start.

 

sounds like a bad distributor to me.

[Ricearu]

Okay......clearing up misinformation

Neutral switch, starter safety switch, adn the crusie clutch swtich are NOT the same. 3 different switches O.K.?

 

Nuetral Switch is for both manuals and autos. Grounds out whenever the trans is in neutral. Mounted on trans in manuals, in shifter for autos. Switch allows the engine to idle without stalling. If trans is in gear, and thorttle is zero, no gas is injected, momentum of car keeps engine turning. But when in neutral, the ECU needs to inject a bit of gas, even when throttle is zero. A faulty neutral switch can cause stalling and idling problems. However, it is a frequent "ghost Code" like 11 and 13, and will come up alot if you are checking codes without actually drivng the car though a cycle.

 

Clutch switch is used by Cruise control system. mounted on clutch pedal. normally closed contacts complete a circuit, then when the clutch is depressed, it breaks the circuit canceling cruise. this switch is not monitored by the ECU.

 

Safety swtich (starter interlock) is also mounted on clutch pedal. NOrmally open, until clutch is depressed completing the circuit for the starter. Not used by ECU for engine operation.

 

I don't think the neutral switch code has anything to do with the no start.

 

sounds like a bad distributor to me.

 

 

I am aware of the clutch safety switch but the cruise system uses the neutral switch to make sure someone doesn't push it out of gear and it rev itself to death.

[man on the moon]

So I DO have a neutral safety switch? I never knew--I thought it was only related to the shifter on the automatic! When I saw that code I did try starting it in various configurations--in gear, out of gear, with/without clutch (no clutch=nothing, which is good). After unplugging the battery the code cleared and I haven't seen it again.

 

I haven't had a chance to put a multi-meter to any of the sensors or harnesses, but I did try to repeat the symptoms. So far there has been no pattern of warm/cold/etc. The idle is a bit rougher/lower than I like, but nothing abnormal (especially once it's warm).

 

The only consistency I've found is in messing with the wiring harness coming from the distributor. I'll still check the other things, but that is my prime suspect...any way to get around it w/out replacing the whole thing? Guessing I know what I'll be doing on my next day off...sigh...

 

Also: anyone have an idea whether it would be worth replacing the ECU, or are these ghost codes (assuming that's the case) relatively harmless? That is to say, am I looking at Casper or Ghostbusters?

[Gloyale]

So I DO have a neutral safety switch?

 

No.

There is no "Neutral Safety" switch.

 

You have a neutral switch, mounted to the trans, that the ECU monitors to know when to inject gas for idling. When you get a Nuetral Switch code, it's for this swtich. NOTHING to do with the clutch switch.

 

If your car is a manual, 90 or newer.....it will also have a Clutch/Starter safety swtich. This is simply to prevent starting the engien without the clutch depressed. Not used by ECU.

 

If it has cruise, there will be an additional clutch switch for the cruise. Again, not used by ECU.

[man on the moon]

Ok, that makes a little more sense, I guess. Not sure why I would get a code for it when the car wasn't even ON...not to mention the code list *specifically* states that "the neutral safety switch is continously in ON position" or something to that effect, unless my memory fails me. It then goes on to specify that "this switch prevents then engine from starting when the transmission is in any position except for 'park' or 'neutral'".

 

If anything a 'neutral sensing' switch in a standard tranny should make the motor start, not keep it from starting. The injector did not fire while this code was blinking.

 

I would imagine the same ECU runs all EA82 transmissions. At one point I was debating swapping (I didn't) in an auto, and iirc the only thing I would have to do with the ECU was ground or unground one pin...this could easily be a ghost or confusedtoheckECU code. Looking for more clarification.

[man on the moon]

Ok, did it. Put in a new disty. The coolant sensor was fine when I checked it a few weeks ago (I had forgotten about that) for another thingymajig I was curious about. Didn't get around to the coil thingy, but the rough/dying idle was happening irregularly--sometimes when the motor was warm, sometimes when it was cold, so I passed. It almost died on me twice in the same trip, even--once when starting out (cold), and once when I was almost to my destination (hot).

 

This morning I took a deep breath and swapped in the disty I got off the other Loyale I mentioned. Put the new rotor on first, that was wise, I think. Fired her up--runs! Adjusted the timing and the clutch, now to drive her for a few days and see if the problem resolves itself, or continues.

 

Guess I'll be back if the problem continues (and it doesn't end up being foul plugs or something).