Ranger83 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I cannot seem to make sens of the difference between a plain ole Legacy wagon and Outback wagon in the 05 models. I can't find a comparison anywhere - Edmunds compare says a non-turbo Legacy wagon doesn't exist. Is it the to days of yore - bigger wheels, heavier duty suspension, gigantic foglights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankemi Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I cannot seem to make sens of the difference between a plain ole Legacy wagon and Outback wagon in the 05 models. I can't find a comparison anywhere - Edmunds compare says a non-turbo Legacy wagon doesn't exist. Is it the to days of yore - bigger wheels, heavier duty suspension, gigantic foglights? As far as i know (which isn't very far) they share the same engine, drive train and body. The OB has more options in the base model, sits up a couple inches higher, and costs more. When I drove the two back to back I thought the OB handled pretty poorly for a car, but better than a typical SUV. I had brochures from a dealer & compared them & decided that I didn't need any of the OB features so I bought the Legacy. --Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Legacy - more sporty, handles better on-road, weighs less, arguably looks better Outback - more utilitarian, handles better off-road, weighed down with luxury, looks tougher There is a nonturbo wagon and sedan version of both the Legacy and Outback. Go to www.subaru.com they have the entire 05 model line there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outback_97 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 http://www.cars101.com/subaru_new.html#legacy-outback This link has lots o' info... as does the whole site. Very good source for specs and that type of data. Pretty much what Jankemi said, although to me the ground clearance is a "feature" that I would like. I've actually taken my first gen OB places where I probably would have damaged the regular Legacy, at least scraped it up a lot. I really like the looks of the new Legacy wagons though... and I'm sure the handling is tighter. But, I don't think I'd be willing to sacrifice the clearance, it's a big issue for me. All in what you need and want. I'd say the regular Legacy is a better value, though, since I don't think there's thousands of dollars of extra content in the OB. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 I downloaded the two brochures. Legacy 2.5i Wagon versus Outback 2.5i Wagon specifically - other models are different. - has less ground clearance (I need 8.7" like a hole in the head). - fog lights optional on Legacy. - Legacy has body color mirrors and door handles - heated side mirrors & wiper de-icer. - "aerodynamic" side cladding versus lower body cladding - low roof rails versus elevated. - manual front seats versus powered - OBW has map lights and sunglass storage - OBW has limited slip differential. - OBW weighs 10 lbs more. We're getting a light delivery vehicle for work, it's down to the Legacy versus Ford Focus wagon, which has a little more room, gets better mileage, has Ford quality versus Subaru, and costs about $5,000 less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Ford quality??? Nice use of an oxymoron If it's going to be a company vehicle though, you could get something with better gas mileage than the Legacy. Might I suggest a base Toyota Matrix? Roomy, versatile, reliable, excellent gas mileage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted December 4, 2004 Author Share Posted December 4, 2004 The Matrix is much too small. We need floor space, not vertical height or we'd consider something like a Honda Element. Also none of us have body piercings. The short list was the Ford Freestyle, Mazda 6 wagon and the Focus (which has a five year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. The Subaru is in it only because I have a $1,000 discount coupon, it's smaller inside than my 97. The vehicles that were too small were the Matrix and Vibe, Chevy Malibu Maxx, Chevy Equinox, and Scion xB. Toyota Highlander and Honda Pilot are out as well for a number of reasons. Ford quality? We have a 1994 Econoline van with 155,000 miles on it. Total unscheduled maintenance is one control module for the trans ($40); new radiator; and new serpentine belt tensioner. This for a vehicle that has towed 3-5,000 lb trailers for at least 25,000 of those miles. So if you want to be a snob, go ahead, it's a free country. I'm trying to make money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subarunation 713 Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 Ford quality? We have a 1994 Econoline van with 155,000 miles on it. Total unscheduled maintenance is one control module for the trans ($40); new radiator; and new serpentine belt tensioner. This for a vehicle that has towed 3-5,000 lb trailers for at least 25,000 of those miles. So if you want to be a snob, go ahead, it's a free country. I'm trying to make money. BTW-what is up with Ford vans? I know several businesses with E150 or E250 Ford vans that seem to last a billion or so miles with very little problems. What makes it all the more mysterious is that they are driven by delivery drivers who usually have ZERO repect for the van because it isn't his and they drive the crap out of them. One of my vendors (a printing company) just got a new E250 after retiring the previous one with 270,000 miles. It handled like crap with 270,000 miles but so would I if I were driven by that particular driver! 270,000 miles is very respectable wouldn't we all agree? My 93 Legacy AWD wagon will turn 200,000 measly miles on Monday. 270,000 is 3 more years away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted December 6, 2004 Author Share Posted December 6, 2004 Ford quality??? Nice use of an oxymoron There sure are a lot of Subaru "experts" here who regularly deride the quality of the 2.5l Subaru engine, stating vehemently that the quality of Subaru has actually declined since the early 90's. So to each their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 There sure are a lot of Subaru "experts" here who regularly deride the quality of the 2.5l Subaru engine, stating vehemently that the quality of Subaru has actually declined since the early 90's. So to each their own. From what I can discern, the only real problem with the 2.5 engine is the head gasket, which is a weak link in the system. I personally own a 92 Legacy wagon and love it. While it does have the "better" 2.2L engine, I would readily buy a new Legacy wagon in a hearbeat (if I had the cash). Ranger83, what you buy for your business should reflect what your business needs are, and nothing more. Ford can be very reliable if regularly maintained, but if you are even the slightest bit sloppy on the maint schedule, they can go bad fast. . . (my experience, anyway). From the sound of things you are looking for a single delivery vehicle and not a fleet? If you decide on Subaru, go with the Legacy and save a few $$. The Outback has a lot of nicieties, but for delivery, they are not really needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Touche! Our 97 Ford Econoline at work has 63k miles on it. We bought it about 6 months ago with 35k miles I think, we put 200 miles on it a day, and it's all stop and go driving, so I do understand that it sees some extreme conditions. But we've had both front brake calipers lock up, and even now it will pull to the left sometimes and pull to the right sometimes under braking and brake pad smoke will emanate from the wheel being pulled on, so that sounds like a prop valve to me. Both my cars which are much older and have many more miles still have every last original brake component. The transmission also sticks in 1st gear sometimes and bounces off the rev limiter at 50mph for a few seconds, even after an ATF flush and refill. The column shifter completely came apart and had to be replaced, althought that didn't fix the brake lock (can be taken out of Park without applying the brake) and the indicator is stuck in 1... Other Ford experiences: I had possession of a 90 Ford Bronco II for a very short period of time. I was assigned to fix it up so me and my grandfather could turn a profit on it. It had 115k and was on its 2nd engine. Well, it had a CEL on, and damned if I knew how to pull the code. The valves tapped like crazy, the fuel gauge didn't work, I think a shift rod was loose in the transmission, and there's more I'm forgetting. And just for the sake of completeness, look at the amount of recalls Ford has every single week and look at the severity of the problem. I can't remember the last time I saw a Subaru in the recall list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 The shop I frequent is a combo Ford/Subaru shop, and when I go into the parts/repair section (to check on parts prices) I generally see a dozen Fords and a Subaru or two. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted December 7, 2004 Author Share Posted December 7, 2004 It's going to be a moot point for us. The Ford dealer doesn't have any stock of what we want. The Subaru dealer does; there's reduced-rate financing; and they're easy to do business with. The point I'm making is that there are people here who routinely trash Subaru in a lot of different areas. People come here, read it, and believe that Subaru is no better. This is in danger of becoming the Ultimate Subaru Bashing Net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Well, yes, the quality went down to "fantastic" from "unbelievable". . . As for "no better" I personally have to disagree. I looked at an '05 Legacy GT wagon the other day, and what I saw was that the cabin areas and controls have been improved a lot, and the engine a little bit (overall). This from a person htat owns a 92 legacy wagon (EJ22 was one of the best engines anyone ever made. . .) I have a few issues with the newer powerplants, but the overall car is much improved over the one I have, and I would buy one in a heartbeat (if I had the cash) over just about any other car on the market today. As for the issues I have with the 2.5 powerplants, it is primarily a case of "there was nothing but room when I had a 2.2, now everything is so tightly packed". . . It may have had something to do with I was looking at a turbo model, and I'm used to a N/A engine. I have also heard others "bashing" the new models, but what I have heard was mostly complaints about the styling of the newer bodies, and problems with the 2.5 powerplant. I am certain that Subaru is addressing these powerplant problems, and the body style issues are a matter of taste. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 As a follow-up, we've decided we probably will buy a Subaru or another wagon this year for business use. So I make an appointment with the Sales Manager at Manchester [NH] Subaru, a dealership that is generally well regarded. The salesperson assigned me - who has been selling Subarus for 8 months - cannot tell me how much higher the Outback Wagon is compared to the Legacyor if there is any difference in spring rate, suspension settings, or load capacity. He does tell me that the Outback suspension is "stiffer but rides better." In fact no one can tell me the load capacity, which CU says is 900 lbs. We go for a test drive, during which he tells me that you cannot adjust the manual seat in the Legacy for height (you can); that all Subarus have limited slip differentials (they don't); and that mileage ranges from 15mpg to 30 (according to customers). I was pretty sure I had a pretty good handle on the differences between the two models, but got so much wrong information that now I'm not sure. Won't be buying from this salesperson - that's for sure. I haven't decided whether to call up and get someone else, or drive down to Nashua Subaru. They are a little farther away but also have a good reputation and were quite straightforward on the phone and via email, although the price they offered initially was not compelling. Or just give up and buy something else. The Nissan salesperson was a lot better informed and could say, "I don't know but I'll get the right answer." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 If it were me, I'd go back to manchester and tell the Sales Manager about the salesperson that is misinforming customers. That kind of thing gives a black eye to the whole dealership, if not the marque itself. I have been hearing from several people that stealerships are giving out a lot of bad info. Something must be done to put an end to this. Subaru is such a great car that it would be a shame to drive people away with bad salespeople/service. . . As a follow-up, we've decided we probably will buy a Subaru or another wagon this year for business use. So I make an appointment with the Sales Manager at Manchester [NH] Subaru, a dealership that is generally well regarded. The salesperson assigned me - who has been selling Subarus for 8 months - cannot tell me how much higher the Outback Wagon is compared to the Legacyor if there is any difference in spring rate, suspension settings, or load capacity. He does tell me that the Outback suspension is "stiffer but rides better." In fact no one can tell me the load capacity, which CU says is 900 lbs. We go for a test drive, during which he tells me that you cannot adjust the manual seat in the Legacy for height (you can); that all Subarus have limited slip differentials (they don't); and that mileage ranges from 15mpg to 30 (according to customers). I was pretty sure I had a pretty good handle on the differences between the two models, but got so much wrong information that now I'm not sure. Won't be buying from this salesperson - that's for sure. I haven't decided whether to call up and get someone else, or drive down to Nashua Subaru. They are a little farther away but also have a good reputation and were quite straightforward on the phone and via email, although the price they offered initially was not compelling. Or just give up and buy something else. The Nissan salesperson was a lot better informed and could say, "I don't know but I'll get the right answer." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 Does Subaru of NEw England have different pricing? One dealer says invoice price on a Legacy 2.5i Wagon, Automatic, is $22,702. Edmunds lists $21,501 plus $575 shipping = $22,076. Nashua quoted $22,286 plus a document fee of $149. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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