Loyale lacks power and chugs

[royboy159]

Did you check the intake manifold gaskets for a leak yet?

 

I am also thinking that the timing belts may not be quite right. You stated that adjusting the timing really helped but it didn't fix it entirely. One of the belts may be off the mark.

 

Another possibility is the fuel pump may need to be changed.

Hey Glen---You took the words right off my fingertips! Except I might go leaks, then pump, then belts. This is an interesting car as any we've worked on.

 

Hey Tim----Too bad the USMB Repair Manual is still down. But I'll give you a quick guide on fuel pump testing.

1.Connect a pressure gauge into the fuel line. After the fuel filter is a convenient spot. You might be able to borrow one from an auto supply.

2.Turn ignition key to on. Pressure should rise rapidly to 36-50 lbs.

3. Turn key off. Relieve pressure and disconnect gauge.

 

"-a friend adjusted the fuel/air mixture (i think... i don't know how to do that)" I'd like to know how he did that too. roy

[Cougar]

Hi Roy:

 

I guess we're thinking in the same zone again.

 

Since he stated that changing the timing made a big improvement I am thinking, as you probably are also, that a belt has slipped and by changing the timing it compensated for it some but the problem is still there.

 

I would also want to do a driving test on the fuel pump to see how it reacts under load while the problem is happening. The pump may work fine without any real load on it.

 

I wondered about the A/F ratio change also. I don't think there is a way of doing that.

[royboy159]

Since he stated that changing the timing made a big improvement I am thinking, as you probably are also, that a belt has slipped and by changing the timing it compensated for it some but the problem is still there.

Now I understand why a slipped belt on the left causes those symtoms.

I would also want to do a driving test on the fuel pump to see how it reacts under load while the problem is happening. The pump may work fine without any real load on it.

I didn't think an EA82 ECM could see this as a problem but if so: fuel pump failing-->lean A/F ratio-->consistent low O2 sensor voltages-->CEL.

Hey Tim---As Glen notes, a static fuel pressure test could be misleading. So:

Connect a tee in the fuel line. I'd put it in place of the metal damper next to the throttle body for simplicity. Run a fuel hose from the tee up along the hood hinge to a spot visible from inside the car. Connect the gauge there and after getting a reading from step #2, take her for a spin.:cool:

[newloyalefan]

Sorry for my delayed response.... and THANKS for your help.

 

Okay, i spent a couple minutes spraying carb cleaner around hoses on the top of the engine while idling (at operating temp) in an effort to "check the air intake manifold for leaks." Of course, i have no real idea what or where to spray, or whether i run a risk of setting my engine afire, but... the engine didn't change idle, so i guess that suggests no leaks... if i sprayed the right parts.

What parts should i be spraying? (terms like "the big black rubber hose that..." or "the seal between the top part of the throttle body and..." may be necessary).

A visual inspection shows what look like cracks in the large rubber rectangle leading into the throttle body (what is that large rubber duct leading from the air filter called anyway?). But i can't tell if the "cracks" go all the way through or are leaking. Again, spraying carb cleaner while idling showed nothing.

 

Alright, next... the fuel pump... is it located under the passanger seat or above a rear wheel well... i've heard different answers for this model car.

But to test it first, sounds like i need to get a pressure guage, a tee, and some tubing. I will perform both tests, but can i place it just after the fuel filter?... i know where that is, but not the "metal damper next to the throttle body."

 

Next... will i be able to visually inspect the timing belts to see if they have slipped? but, since this car's last known replacement for belts was six years ago, i may as well just replace them.

 

Lastly... i'm surprised no one suspects this to be a catalytic problem or clogged exhaust... but i'm just learning.

 

If you repond to my questions, i'll see if i can get these checks done in the next two days and get back to you.

Thanks a lot Glen and Roy!!

[simple monkey]

To make the car run better, just ride around in WOT for a while. that always seems to fix my car's sluggishness.

[newloyalefan]

To make the car run better, just ride around in WOT for a while. that always seems to fix my car's sluggishness.

 

WOT??

[simple monkey]

WIDE OPEN THROTTLE!!

 

This happened in my dad's 87 gl wagon, it ran like crap this one day I was driving it. So I pushed the car to its limits and it made a huge puff of black smoke halfway up a hill, then it never gave me problems again. My brother did the same thing in his corolla, he pushed it once now its fine. The carbon deposits in the engine are blown out when the engine is pushed hard.

[newloyalefan]

Was also wondering... does my car ('94 Loyale) have a throttle position sensor? and would that be a likely candidate for my troubles?

Thanks

[royboy159]

Of course, i have no real idea what or where to spray, or whether i run a risk of setting my engine afire, but... the engine didn't change idle, so i guess that suggests no leaks...

I usually spray mine cold though the exhaust pipe will heat up quite quik.

What parts should i be spraying?

Spray around the base of the intake manifold pipes where they connect to the heads. Spray around the top of the intake manifold pipes where they join the throttle body.

A visual inspection shows what look like cracks in the large rubber rectangle leading into the throttle body (what is that large rubber duct leading from the air filter called anyway?). But i can't tell if the "cracks" go all the way through or are leaking. Again, spraying carb cleaner while idling showed nothing.

Spraying this intake duct won't reveal much. Small leaks here wouldn't cause major symptoms.

[royboy159]

Alright, next... the fuel pump... is it located under the passanger seat or above a rear wheel well... i've heard different answers for this model car.

But to test it first, sounds like i need to get a pressure guage, a tee, and some tubing. I will perform both tests, but can i place it just after the fuel filter?... i know where that is, but not the "metal damper next to the throttle body."

Fuel pump is forward of right rear wheel. The metal damper should be the only object in the fuel line between the filter and the throttle body. But you can connect in after the filter also.:cool:

[royboy159]

Next... will i be able to visually inspect the timing belts to see if they have slipped? but, since this car's last known replacement for belts was six years ago, i may as well just replace them.

Not readily. You can remove the 2 black inspection plugs off the timing belt covers on the front of the engine to get an idea if the belt teeth are worn or the belt is loose. Determine slippage, total condition, and replace after the more likely causes are eliminated.

Lastly... i'm surprised no one suspects this to be a catalytic problem or clogged exhaust..

This is a rare cause. Hope we don't get that far.

Thanks a lot Glen and Roy!!

You're welcome, Tim.

[Cougar]

Ditto on that Tim!

[newloyalefan]

And here's the latest:

-checked the air intake all around the throttle body and where it connects to the heads. no sign of leaks (at least from the spraying).

-i ran the car at 70+mph for 1.5 hrs, then parked it in my dark garage and checked underneath for anything glowing "red-hot" on the exhaust lines.. nothing (this was someone's suggestion for checking for clogged cat).

-i have not ponied up the money ($25) for a fuel pressure guage to check the performance of the pump... would you guys suggest i go ahead and purchase the guage to check the pressure in the fuel line?

-finally, i've decided to go ahead and replace the timing belts; will do this Friday... what the heck, they probably haven't been done in seven years anyway, and i could use the experience.

Thanks again for all your help!!

-tim

[royboy159]

Hey Tim---I'd hold off on buying a gauge. By Saturday you may hear of an auto parts that loans them out, a friend who'll lend it to you, or find a pressure gauge off an air tank, water tank, or compression tester that you could hook up.

roy

[newloyalefan]

Yea, i'm trying to figure out whether i can hook up my tire guage with some hosing and stuff... it guages between 10lbs and 50lbs, which is all i need anyway, right?

[royboy159]

Yea, i'm trying to figure out whether i can hook up my tire guage with some hosing and stuff... it guages between 10lbs and 50lbs, which is all i need anyway, right?

Hey Tim---If it has a valve to hold the pressure reading, you'll need to bypass that to get the dynamic readings you want.

roy

[Cougar]

I wouldn't recommend using a air gauge to look at fuel pressures with. That may be dangerous to have gasoline in side the gauge that is not designed to measure fluid pressures.

[KStretch55]

I didn't see anyone answer your throttle position sensor question. Yes, it does have one. It's mounted to the side of the throttle body and has an oval shaped, 4 contact plug. It it's bad you "should" get a code for it. Keyword is "should".

[newloyalefan]

Thanks all.

The car is running pretty well right now. I've cleaned out the throttle body more thorougly with carb cleaner and put another batch of treatment in the fuel tank. It still chugs at start-up and doesn't have great power up hills, but is running adequately. I think i'll spring for the fuel guage just to check pressure and change the timing belts on the weekend.

-Tim

[royboy159]

I wouldn't recommend using a air gauge to look at fuel pressures with. That may be dangerous to have gasoline in side the gauge that is not designed to measure fluid pressures.

Good point Glen. Any gauge with plastic as part of it's plumbing might not be safe to use with gasoline.