kozaz Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 When I saw Rhino buggies for the first time, I was going to build one. They stated 75mph, but, I'm pretty sure thats without atv tires? I notice some of your pictures show your Summer in the desert and on dirt roads. I have the following questions/requests: I was curious if you ever had it over 25mph with the ATV tires? You stated eariler that you do not practice this but did you try it? If you went out with a group of quads (Trail riding) can you keep up with them? (within reason) Whats your feelings on the suspension performace and Summer's overall lightness with the ATV vs. Regular tires on dirt roads and rough trails? Do you have any problems with steep hill climbs? If you were to get rid of the ATV Tires, what size tires would you perfer to replace them with and why? Do you think a shorter wheel base would improve the Bandit? If you were to do it all over again, what would you do different and why? Any new driving techniques you learned from driving the lighter Summer compared to the stock subaru? Any info would be greatly apprecitated! I'm still thinking of building one, my current plan is making the wheel base a little shorter to improve the break over angle. I think I will stay with regular tires, but would love to use ATV tires, but worry I would not be satisfied with the high speed performance. I would be using mine on dirt roads (Forest Roads) some nice and smooth to get there, but then become rocky and rough. I've read some of your earlier posts and I know I'm asking redundant questions about the ATV Tires, but I hope I'm not asking to much. Since you've used both ATV and Regular tires, I think you are the right person to talk to instead of me contacting RhinoBuggies. Thanks, Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet82 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 My net was down all afternoon:mad:. Sorry about that. 1. Yes. I have had it over 25 but my speedo is now off by a wide margin. 22.5 tires VS 25.5 tires. I have indicated 25 mph on the speedo with ATV tires. Not really sure of my true speed. The most limiting factor in my land speed record attempts has been the vibration. I have armor plated Summer. This armor plating will vibrate and make noise. I'm slowly isolating the noises/rattles from the plating. The frame and running gear are rock solid. So it's only body panels that have kept me in check. The other reason I keep my speed down is the tires I purchased are real aggressive. They have 1 1/4 lugs and spaced way far apart. This is not a tread pattern that is condusive to quiet/smooth running. A less aggressive tire would no doubt allow a smoother ride at higher speeds. I'm fully aware I'm pushing the limits of an ATV tire and have no real desire to find out what that limit is. My tires are six ply and I have run them for 3 years now. They seem to behave as I expected. I have never been Stuck. 2. Yes. I have played with Quads. I can pretty much go where they go. My track is always the widest but will always fit in any twin tracks. The two vehicles have their differences. I can carry 4 people and all the gear I need. I can go all week on a tank of gas. There are places where I can do better, there are places a quad will do better. 3. I have no reservations on the suspension. More is always better but for the engine and power I have it seems to work. Suspension is just not an issue with this vehicle. The shortend wheel base takes care of so much of the problems of a limited suspension. I purchased the "on-road" tires to get me quickly down asphault roads with out vibrations. I have not had them off-road as much as the ATV's. From what I have seen they seem to do fine in most situations. I'm sure there will be a difference in snow and sand. You certainly have a better range of speed with a "on-road" tire. But you loose width with on-road tires. Substantial width! The speeds quoted by Rhinobuggies have got to be with regular tires. The way they explained it to me was. "It's the same car you had before, you have not done a thing to change it's speed". That is true. You have just put on a new "more off-road oriented" body. Everything else is just as it was with your old car. 4. Yes. I have always been inpressed by the climbing ability of my little Sub. However when you up the tire size you loose that ability. The bigger the tire, the less climbing ability you have. There is a positive trade-off with bigger tires. Clearance is it. The longer the vehicle the more you'll need. I took 15" out of Summer and don't need much clearance. My little Mad Max (84 GL Wagon) will make a much stronger attempt at a STEEP hill. Max will spin tires and stop. Summer will not spin a tire and if the hill is too steep it will power out. 5. If I replaced them, I might try a 25" or maybe even a 24" rather than the 26". Climbing is everything to me. Clearance is just not an issue with this body. 6. No. I used artistic license when I built the buggy. I changed a handful of things but one thing I would not change is the length. It already turns on a dime!!! Ask anyone who's riden in it. Shawn W, Caboobaru, Honda Sucks, Mudrat, Harpua... It will turn the rear wheels in a 9' loop. No need to shorten. The shortness allow you to bypass so many of the limitations of the old Subarus. 7. Nothing! I wanted a 4 place buggy for the family to putter around in the hills. That is what I use it for. That is what it does best. If I was looking for a different application I'd do many things different. I built it to my specks. It's exactly how I want it. I does what I want it to do. 8. Yes. The sway bar is gone and that made a difference. The diff is welded and that makes a difference. I enjoy the scenery going by because it's an open buggy and that makes it enjoyable. I have been able to put it on some incredible angles sideways with out the slightest bit of worry or rolling. My wheel width is well over six feet. You do sit higher than a stock Subie. This gives you a great drivers prospective for dealing with the trail. The other main driving difference you'd notice is from the gearing! It's not the same driving style as your stock gearing. You will use the clutch more and have less power. You don't sit inside the car like you do with a stock Subie. The rest of the driving is the same as the old Subaru. Hope I've answered all your questions. I have got to run. Let me know if I missed anything (spell check, grammer...) http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=584 Link to pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikie Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 If i can offer some comment as well, a number of friends and myself run offroad buggies on ATV tyres. I havent been much over 70mph (which is plenty fast enough in my playground) but have found 70 to be fine, im using Kenda bearclaws which have 5/8" high, widely spaced lugs. Speeds are all estimates based on RPM and gearing. An associate has been to an estimated 90mph on fairly worn atv tyres, he reported at that speed the tyres ballooned alarmingly in diameter and handling became a bit hairy, however his buggy has seen some adventures and the wheel alignment has changed a lot over time. We use pressures from 5psi to about 20psi without problem, in fact the lower pressures can allow the rim to spin inside the tyre, plus higher inflations give more ground clearance. The tyres have seen accidents that have bent rims and suspension arms without failing or deflating. By this i mean hitting trees/rocks at speed etc. The tyres have proved far tougher than their ratings/load limits/psi limits would suggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x1/9 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 8. Yes. The sway bar is gone and that made a difference. how much difference would it make if you removed the sway bar from the front of a sube? I always had an inkling that it would give better individual wheel travel. I might just be confused :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozaz Posted October 31, 2006 Author Share Posted October 31, 2006 I can carry 4 people and all the gear I need. I can go all week on a tank of gas. I wanted a 4 place buggy for the family to putter around in the hills. I enjoy the scenery going by because it's an open buggy and that makes it enjoyable. This is exactly why I'm interested in the Bandit. Besides, why do what the masses do, I'm poor and happy! I took 15" out of Summer and don't need much clearance. Did you take 15" out of the Bandit Plans or did the plans already shorten the Wheel base? 6. No. I used artistic license when I built the buggy. I changed a handful of things but one thing I would not change is the length. It already turns on a dime!!! Ask anyone who's riden in it. Shawn W, Caboobaru, Honda Sucks, Mudrat, Harpua... It will turn the rear wheels in a 9' loop. No need to shorten. The shortness allow you to bypass so many of the limitations of the old Subarus. What is your wheel base? My little Mad Max (84 GL Wagon) will make a much stronger attempt at a STEEP hill. Max will spin tires and stop. Summer will not spin a tire and if the hill is too steep it will power out. Why does your Mad Max (84 GL Wagon) out perform Summer in the above situtaion? (I'm not sure what's your drivetrain and tire set up in the 84 GL Wagon.) 5. If I replaced them, I might try a 25" or maybe even a 24" rather than the 26". Climbing is everything to me. Clearance is just not an issue with this body. The other main driving difference you'd notice is from the gearing! It's not the same driving style as your stock gearing. You will use the clutch more and have less power. I assume you are relating the gearing problem with taller tires? Do you know how much yours weighs? I assume it's lighter than stock? Anybody know what a stock 82-84 Subaru station wagon weights? You don't sit inside the car like you do with a stock Subie How tall are you, and will a 6' tall person hit his head inside? Do you have any unusual tire wear, maybe incorrect camber or other? Thanks again for all the info, you're really sheading alot of light on the subject! Ask anyone who's riden in it. Shawn W, Caboobaru, Honda Sucks, Mudrat, Harpua... If you guys are reading this, I would like to hear about your rides! If i can offer some comment as well, a number of friends and myself run offroad buggies on ATV tyres. I havent been much over 70mph (which is plenty fast enough in my playground) but have found 70 to be fine, im using Kenda bearclaws which have 5/8" high, widely spaced lugs. Speeds are all estimates based on RPM and gearing. An associate has been to an estimated 90mph on fairly worn atv tyres, he reported at that speed the tyres ballooned alarmingly in diameter and handling became a bit hairy, however his buggy has seen some adventures and the wheel alignment has changed a lot over time. We use pressures from 5psi to about 20psi without problem, in fact the lower pressures can allow the rim to spin inside the tyre, plus higher inflations give more ground clearance. The tyres have seen accidents that have bent rims and suspension arms without failing or deflating. By this i mean hitting trees/rocks at speed etc. The tyres have proved far tougher than their ratings/load limits/psi limits would suggest. What type of vehicle are the offroad buggies built from? What is the final offroad buggy weight? Got pics or links? The tyres have proved far tougher than their ratings/load limits/psi limits would suggest. I'm thinking the same, since the following atvs weigh over 1000lbs and can carry even more. The Polaris Ranger's Dry Weight is 1185 lbs / 539 kg Box Capacity 1000 lbs / 454kgs Vehicle TOTAL Payload Capacity 1500lbs / 681kgs Yamaha Rhino Dry Weight 1049 lbs. Bed Capacity 400 lbs. 2005 kawasaki Mule 3010 Trans 4x4 Dry Weight 1,473 lbs. LOAD CAPACITY: 400 lbs. (4-pass. mode); 800 lbs. (2-pass. mode) Arctic Cat Prowler Dry Weight 1160 lbs. Bed Capacity 600 lbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet82 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I'm into Summer $1,600 as it stands. $500 tires & custom rims. $400 Steel. $600 Aluminum. Done. Some quick stats, Wheel base center to center 80" Wheel track center of tire to center of tire 62" ATV Wheel width outside measurement 73" ATV Overall Length 133" Floor height 20" Overall height 63" Angle of approach 45 Angle of departure 71 The only tire wear I have noticed is on the edge of the lugs from being up front. Typical front tire wear. I've been running my tires at around 30psi I have not experimented with lower pressures. I think the closest compable vehicle is one of the 2-4 person quads you mentioned. The biggest difference would be the cost... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozaz Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 Just thougt I would post some pics. Stock Version Chop Lines Paneled and Moded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet82 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Way funny, I did the same thing looking for the design I wanted. I made a pickup version which was cool, but it was a two seater. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13320 The reason I made the XTerra roof line was because the rear passengers heads will sit above the stock roof line with no protection. The rear XTerra braces must be almost vertical to allow passenger room in the back without stretching the chassis. The stock slope angle will not work. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13322 The final Photo shop proto type. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13321 I'd recomend dropping the front nose 8" for better visibility. (snoop nose) The very front area your looking at chopping will not make any difference in your angle of attack and cause major structural revisions. I cut/angled it slightly different at the bottom from the plans. The firewall area can't be shortened. THere are some hidden problems with that. You'll run into clearance problems with your motor/radiator, tires/chassis. I'd recomemd (STRONGLY!) putting an extra 2" in that exact spot to allow for tire travel. I've had to revise that area twice! In the rear cab area lengthening or shortening is easy and will not cause any major problems. If your planning on 4 seats lengthen it exactly where you put the lines to make a comfortable rear seating area. If you decide to shorten it you'll have to do it further back where all the tubes are parallel. I would not make the Bandit any shorter than it already is. If it gets too short, I think you'll loose stability on steep and sideways angles. Rock Crawler frames are long not short. One more note, I'd put the gas tank back to it's original location (above the diff). It will fit fine and still be out of harms way. Doing this will allow easier adapting & using the stock filler tube & gas cap. It will also give you 8-9" more depth for storage in the back. Keep going! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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