mountaingoatgruff Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 97 legacy l wagon, 187k just replaced in the last two days: t-belt (oem) t-belt tensioner (ram is oem, pulley is gmb) all t-belt idlers (gmb) water pump (new cardone) t-stat & gasket (oem) cam seals/o-rings (oem) crank seals (oem) valve cover gaskets (beck-arnley) oil pan gasket (spectra) rad hoses & bypass hose (goodyear) rad cap (oem) differential oil (valvoline semi-synthetic) i also adjusted the valves cleaned/resealed the oil separator and left some prestone coolant system cleaner in there overnight after running it up to temp. i still have intake manifold, tb, iacv, egr gaskets and a new pcv (all oem parts) to install after i bead blast the intake, still need to get injector seals, etc but that's beside the point. i just tried this morning to flush the coolant cleaner and refill the system with water/coolant. i noticed when i ran it up to temp yesterday it was getting hotter than normal (it always runs with the needle just in the middle of the water in the icon on the gauge face - around 1/3 of the way up), it was well past half but still below the danger zone. i figured there was still a bunch of air in there and didn't think much of it. then as i was filling it today i had the engine idling with the heater on full blast topping off as i could. i totally forgot about the air bleed on the top pass side of the rad untill it was already warm and so some steam came out quickly but not shooting then coolant gushed out. resealed the air bleed, topped off and then went to shut it off to wait for it to cool off and damn near dropped my colon on the driveway when i saw the temp needle at the bottom of the danger zone. another possibly relevant bit, i lost maybe a quart, certainly less than 2 qts of atf while pulling the engine and popping the tq converter off. i wanted to get some in there before doing much else this morning and after FOUR QUARTS i'm still not reading full to the cold marks! i can't say for sure that it wasn't that low before but i would think that if it was i'd have noticed on some of those 6 hour trips up to and through the mountains... never had any tranny trouble with this car though. can there really be that much air left in there? i'm kinda hesitant to do much with it until i figure this out, or until one of you figures it out and graces me with your wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 you have an air bubble still in the system. search the forum for tons of information on great ways to burp it. ATF lines are a real PITA, they're often inaccurate. mine seem to read best right after the car has been driven a lot. turn off and check. crank it, run through gears, and check again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted August 21, 2008 Author Share Posted August 21, 2008 you have an air bubble still in the system. search the forum for tons of information on great ways to burp it. that's reassuring. i'll be on it in two minutes! ATF lines are a real PITA, they're often inaccurate. mine seem to read best right after the car has been driven a lot. turn off and check. crank it, run through gears, and check again. this one scares me... i've added 4 qts where only 2 at the most came out, could it have been that low and we didn't notice while driving? i'm asking because i'm not sure how these cars act when there low on fluid or just how low problems begin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 this one scares me... i've added 4 qts where only 2 at the most came out, could it have been that low and we didn't notice while driving? i'm asking because i'm not sure how these cars act when there low on fluid or just how low problems begin. I saw the photo of your tranny oil pump shaft still attached to the tc as you were pulling the engine w/tc still attached. I wonder now if your differential suddenly has two quarts of atf in it? Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Did you plug the fans in after you were done??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertsubaru Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 I vote for air bubbles. After I did my engine swap mine did the same thing until all the air was out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted August 22, 2008 Author Share Posted August 22, 2008 I saw the photo of your tranny oil pump shaft still attached to the tc as you were pulling the engine w/tc still attached. I wonder now if your differential suddenly has two quarts of atf in it? Just a thought. i changed the front diff oil after reinstalling the engine and it was okay, toasted but no atf that is. about pulling the engine w/ the tc attatched... i'm pretty much self taught and i didn't know any better. i've done every at motor i've pulled that way (including 3 other ej22's and an ej25 and whole gang of mopars, my other more longstanding automotive infatuation) and never had a problem until this one hung up like that. i've usually slid the tc into the bellhousing before installing the engines then bolted the tc to the flywheel/flexplate after. i don't really know why i developed such a counterintuitive method but i'll be sure to start unbolting the tc as part of pulling an engine from now on. that was the tranny oil pump shaft, huh? would it have hurt anything when i did that? there's no leaks or tranny codes and the thing still shifts fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted August 22, 2008 Author Share Posted August 22, 2008 Did you plug the fans in after you were done??? yeah they're plugged in (but my short-term memory loss thanks you for asking). after reading some about burping and proper filling techniques i'm pretty sure its got a ridiculous amount of air in there. i'll be headed out to try to redo it as soon as i get my email taken care of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-fleet-feet Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 i also adjusted the valves cleaned/resealed the oil separator and left some prestone coolant system cleaner in there overnight after running it up to temp.I wonder if you used the white Prestone cleaner, the one which looks like milk? I used that one only once - I left it in overnight due to a severe storm stopping my work early; after that, I had nothing but trouble with my coolant system (not a Subaru). This was a system which had no problems, I was just doing maintenance. After trying everything else I could think of, I removed the (six months new) water pump to see if it was working. It was filled with white 'glue' - the 'cleaner' had set up, overnight, into something like concrete. My new hoses weren't so bad off, but my radiator needed rodded out, since the lower half was totally blocked by the stuff. Did the cleaner bottle state you could leave it in, or that it needed removed at once after the specified time period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 i changed the front diff oil after reinstalling the engine and it was okay, toasted but no atf that is. Have you checked the fluid level in the diff since then? Is it now overfull? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tferron Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 You should have prefilled the engine throught the air bleed on the right top of radiator. Other wise one side of the engine stays dry and tstat can't get an enough coolant to open accurately. Opening it to bleed air doesn't usually solve unless you were able to get most of the coolant in it. One of my techs ruined a block by not prefilling it, cracked a cylinder sleeve at the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted August 22, 2008 Author Share Posted August 22, 2008 I wonder if you used the white Prestone cleaner, the one which looks like milk? I used that one only once - I left it in overnight due to a severe storm stopping my work early; after that, I had nothing but trouble with my coolant system (not a Subaru). This was a system which had no problems, I was just doing maintenance. After trying everything else I could think of, I removed the (six months new) water pump to see if it was working. It was filled with white 'glue' - the 'cleaner' had set up, overnight, into something like concrete. My new hoses weren't so bad off, but my radiator needed rodded out, since the lower half was totally blocked by the stuff. Did the cleaner bottle state you could leave it in, or that it needed removed at once after the specified time period? i used the prestone stuff in the little yellow bottle shaped just like the gallon antifreeze jugs, its a clear watery liquid. i've left the stuff in older systems and drove on short trips over the course of a couple days (for various reasons) and never had any issues. i'm waiting for the car to cool off right now, i ran it to temp so i could take advantage of another opportunity to rinse the snot out. it took in everything from the expansion tank overnight (which was well above the full line) and i waited quite a while for it to warm up. fan kicked on fine and temp lowered till it kicked off, hoses were both hot and things seemed normal. in a bit i'm going to drain/flush and start over by filling through the upper hose first just to be sure - another few quarts of antifreeze are too cheap not to. i don't have the bottle, garbage man came yesterday morning. what are everyone's thoughts on tap water versus distilled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted August 22, 2008 Author Share Posted August 22, 2008 Have you checked the fluid level in the diff since then? Is it now overfull? just checked and its cool - right on the line and clear as fresh oil should be. is there a seal right there that the pump shaft would have potentially comprimised? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted August 22, 2008 Author Share Posted August 22, 2008 You should have prefilled the engine throught the air bleed on the right top of radiator. Other wise one side of the engine stays dry and tstat can't get an enough coolant to open accurately. Opening it to bleed air doesn't usually solve unless you were able to get most of the coolant in it. One of my techs ruined a block by not prefilling it, cracked a cylinder sleeve at the top. after reading some old threads i think i'm going to pull the hoses off, remove the t-stat and open the air bleed while i flush the rad and the block really well. then i'll reinstall the t-stat & lower hose then fill the block through the upper hose. after reinstalling the upper hose i'll fill the rad then the expansion tank then put the rad cap in the first detent position. after than i'll run it till the t-stat opens then in theory coolant should be gushing from the air bleed and rad cap then i can quickly colse them off and wait for the coolant in the expansion tank to be pulled in as things cool off then i should be able to top off the expansion tank as needed from there. i'm totally new to this bottom t-stat configuration so i'm used to just pulling the vehicle onto ramps under the front wheels, filling the rad with the heater on full blast and checking it the next day. somebody please tell me if you see anything i should do differently from what i've outlined above and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tferron Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 All we've ever had to do was first fill the radiator then fill the engine through the air bleed with a tiny funnel until it will take no more . Make sure the radiator is full also if it didn't completely fill the first time. Put the cap on and let it warm up. The problem lies in that the right side of the block won't fill properly without doing this and air will be trapped in a big way on the right side and then...overheat and potential engione damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Coming in a little late here :-) Get your colon back in place, a small overheat, with the engine unloaded isn't going to kill anything. Next up: Filling via the top hose (about 2 qts), remounting the hose, and filling via the rad neck are the way to go. As you have concluded above. Leave the rad cap and bleeder off, let the coolant ooze out (helps if you don't fill to the brim in the above exercise) and wait for the radiator fan to switch on. Then you will notice the coolant level drop since the cooling effect of the fan makes it contract. THIS STAGE IS CRITICAL, since it means you can 100% sure that the engine is warm enough for the thermostat to be open. With that open, pump circulation will flush out the bigger air pockets. Give it half a minute, then seal up the rad cap and bleeder. Keep an eye on the level in the expansion tank for a few days. Try to avoid the temptation to open the rad cap again. The expansion tank level should drop quite a bit during the first overnight cool down, then not too much during the subsequent days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 When it over-heats can you feel the lower rad hose to see if it is hot or cold. If it is cold you have a leak somehwere.. tighten all of the hoses back up with a ratchet not a screw driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 Coming in a little late here :-) Get your colon back in place, a small overheat, with the engine unloaded isn't going to kill anything. Next up: Filling via the top hose (about 2 qts), remounting the hose, and filling via the rad neck are the way to go. As you have concluded above. Leave the rad cap and bleeder off, let the coolant ooze out (helps if you don't fill to the brim in the above exercise) and wait for the radiator fan to switch on. Then you will notice the coolant level drop since the cooling effect of the fan makes it contract. THIS STAGE IS CRITICAL, since it means you can 100% sure that the engine is warm enough for the thermostat to be open. With that open, pump circulation will flush out the bigger air pockets. Give it half a minute, then seal up the rad cap and bleeder. Keep an eye on the level in the expansion tank for a few days. Try to avoid the temptation to open the rad cap again. The expansion tank level should drop quite a bit during the first overnight cool down, then not too much during the subsequent days. i did it about that way and all seems well. i've gotten it to temp a few times and it's having no issues with cooling, the fan comes on for a minute and kicks back off. it pulled a bit in from the expansion tank overnight - not much - and i topped it off this morning. i'll be watching it like a hawk for a while but i really just need to drive it to see how it acts...which brings us back to the other issue, atf. i pulled the car onto my ramps and drained the tranny pan, got a lot more then i expected out (of course) and then pushed it off the ramps. i didn't bother measuring how much came out since i knew it was an inaccurate representation of the proper amount. so i started filling it back up but i must be totally retarded or something. call me stupid but i figured if there's a dry spot on the stick the level of the fluid must be at or below that dry spot. well, i've got fluid all over the stick but consistent dry spots below the "cold L" mark. so i kept dumping it in there.... well now when i rev the engine there's atf squirting out what looks like an overflow hose (its a little black rubber hose that goes straight up then bends 180deg straight down) at the top behind the bellhousing. i've never had this much trouble with atf before, can somebody please tell me what i'm doing wrong? stuff like this is why i like to work on my hatch instead!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 doing a drain of the ATF on level ground yeilds around 4.5 to 5 qts. I would drian and fill 4.8 qts. Get the engine up to temp and check atf fluid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 doing a drain of the ATF on level ground yeilds around 4.5 to 5 qts. I would drian and fill 4.8 qts. Get the engine up to temp and check atf fluid i drained it on ramps and i'd estimate i got about 8-10qts out. now i don't have 5qts left to drain/fill again and even if i did that would kind of be a waste without driving the car to mix the fluid so i could get more of the old crap out. that atf dipstick is harder to read than sanscrit!! for all the things subaru has done so right they really dropped the ball there, at least in my opinion. i'm just trying to prolong the thing's health and here i am worried i've it at every turn!! just to verify with everyone, i'm checking the level by the hayne's manual method (is that my problem?) which says with the engine warm shift through each gear beginning and ending in park then use the cold marks if the tranny's cold and the hot marks if you've driven it around to warm it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 well now when i rev the engine there's atf squirting out what looks like an overflow hose (its a little black rubber hose that goes straight up then bends 180deg straight down) at the top behind the bellhousing. this sounds like the front differential vent tube. i don't think the there is an over flow for the ATF. (i thought that was a sealed system.) the ATF dip stick is on the driver side near the firewall. the dip stick for the front dif in on the passenger side down low. which one did you put the ATF in ? i don't remember what you started out doing, but is there a chance you damaged the seal betwen the trans and the front diff? i don't see how a t-belt job could do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 this sounds like the front differential vent tube. i don't think the there is an over flow for the ATF. (i thought that was a sealed system.) the ATF dip stick is on the driver side near the firewall. the dip stick for the front dif in on the passenger side down low. which one did you put the ATF in ? i don't remember what you started out doing, but is there a chance you damaged the seal betwen the trans and the front diff? i don't see how a t-belt job could do that. just checked the diff oil and it's good - fresh and on the mark. about an hour ago i figured out how to read a dipstick and got the tranny filled to the lower hot mark. i went across town to borrow a lawnmower and checked the tranny fluid once i got back. after fully warming up its just past the word hot on the stick which is overfilled a bit so i'll be draining some out once it cools down, but other than that it seems okay. the car is shifting and driving fine, did some circles with the wheels all the way over each way and it did great with no binding, clicking, etc. temp is a hair lower than before and steady even at 80mph (i DON'T do that often at all but i really wanted to know things would be okay). now the embarassing part - i had to drain about 3 1/2 quarts of atf to get it to the level its at now... i didn't drive it overfilled but i guess its bad enough all the same. thanks for the help again guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 now the embarassing part - i had to drain about 3 1/2 quarts of atf to get it to the level its at now... i didn't drive it overfilled but i guess its bad enough all the same. thanks for the help again guys. good work!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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