89Ru Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 (edited) Been a reader of this post below for my '95 ej22 but maybe missed some key details and now I'm fighting ej25 problems. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21681&highlight=Setright+radiator This is my first ej25 coolant flush, a '97 DOHC. Things went well at first yesterday. I replaced the t-stat and gasket with parts from the dealer, and subie green coolant (after choking on the price). Fill through the top hose, slow then into the rad with the bleed port open. During the warm up saw the characteristic bubble every few seconds from the overflow tank, overnight cooldown, and top off this morning with the bleed port open (took more water than expected...3/4 tank was sucked in overnight). During the test drive the overflow tank overflowed, the top rad hose was sucked flat during cooldown, until the overflow tank was sucked dry and then a huge gulp of air :-\ when I didn't catch the empty tank in time. Looks like I'll be bleeding for a week! Didn't incline the car nose up during the fill, will next time after this incident. Some slight deviations from the post above, I remove the tstat, backflush with distilled water with a drill pump first into the top hose to flush the heater and block, draining from the tstat inlet, then backflush into the lower hose to flush the rad draining from the top rad port. I also did the initial warm up with closed radiator and bleed port...that has worked for my ej22, will try the open port 'burp' process next. Also ordering the spill-free funnel below for the burping... http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/lis24610.html Any other obvious things I'm missing? When I start up after the cooloff the first thing I'll check is the dreaded stream of overflow tank bubbles... Update: I know this is a well worn out topic... Started up, no overflow tank bubbles, so hg ok i presume Inclined car nose up Run with rad cap off (plenty of air bled out of the fill point, looked like it was boiling at one point...) used an old turkey baster to siphon rising fluid into overflow tank Top off and cap radiator when fans started up Fans didn't turn off as expected Upper rad hose hot, soft even with cap on (run too long with cap off? no pressure??? or still too much trapped air...) Lower rad hose cold Radiator generally cool on drivers side temp gauge in the middle, normal place heater blowing hot My take on this is either the rad is clogged, maybe the backflush stirred up some crud and plugged it? or my new tstat isn't opening... will try again after overnight cooldown, ej25 newbie Edited August 9, 2009 by 89Ru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 (edited) I don't get a 'surge' when the tstat opens so I'm thinking its not opening...but wouldn't the car overheat with a closed tstat? Nipper writes: FYI how to refill a subaru (or any car for that matter). Make sure the car is on level ground or nose uphill. Open air vent if equiped. Start car. SLOWLY pour 50/50 premix into the radiator till it is full. Wait for the T-stat to open. The coolant will surge out when it opens. Let the car run a bit more then top off the radiator. You can goose the throttle if you want. Fill the Overflow tank to the hot line. Place cap on the radiator, drive the car around the block. Let the car cool off. Check the coolant level in the radiator. Top off radiator in the above manor. Repeat if needed. During this procedure always monitor your engine temp. If you see it rising on the test drive, go home and let the car cool off and topoff. I have never ever had an air bubble in any car using this procedure . Edited August 21, 2009 by 89Ru move update to original post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Had hoses collapse on my twice. Both times the cause was a clogged radiator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 Had hoses collapse on my twice. Both times the cause was a clogged radiator. thanks for that affirm this '97 obw (new to me) has a single bank radiator, will a double bank fit or is it not worth the cost/trouble? sometimes I pull a trailer, had no probs in the past with the single bank or while running a/c (until now of course) also will try a new rad cap just to say I did it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Get a new radiator cap. Put the car at an incline REMOVE, not just open the bleeder cap. Fill the car SLOWLY, it will take a while, just keep adding a trickle until it comes out the bleeder. Replace but don't tighten bleeder. Then start the car, and run it steady at about 1800 rpms, still with rad cap off. Run it until you see the level drop slighlty, and *flow* in the radiator. keep running it for a bit, the level will bulge up out of the filler neck, followed by a few bubbles. Let it do that a few times and refill. once it starts getting *foamy* looking and hot, cap it off and close the bleeder. If you keep going with the system open at this point the coolant will start boiling and you are moving backwards. You shouldn't need to do that more than twice. If you still have problems after that, espescially if you're overflow is filling and boiling out, you probably need to replace the HG. You may as well get used to the idea............if it doesn't need em now, it will someday soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Run it until you see the level drop slighlty, and *flow* in the radiator. keep running it for a bit, the level will bulge up out of the filler neck, followed by a few bubbles. Let it do that a few times and refill. once it starts getting *foamy* looking and hot, cap it off and close the bleeder. Thx for ideas. Got a new cap but I don't see flow like I'm expecting (turbulent with the neck level dropping slightly as rpm increases, this isn't happening, in fact the opposite, no turbulence, calm as a pond, and level rises as the temp increases and I have to repeatedly siphon off the top). Ran at 1800 rpm but it never got foamy and at the point when the fans started running it was hard to tell whether air was still bleeding out or coolant was boiling at the bleed port near the upper hose. The lack of flow makes me suspect the thermostat isn't fully opening or radiator is clogged. This time the lower hose was warm. Still no appreciable pressure, upper hose soft but then again I may be capping radiator and bleed plug too late (coolant already boiling...) Temp gauge in the middle. Tomorrow may try running with all plugs sealed from the start to build pressure. If I have a huge air bubble that I can't clear because of the flow problem, am I running the risk of hg damage by continuing this process? Or is the flow problem going to clear itself as I slowly bleed air out? Or should I punt, drain the system, test the thermostat, replace the radiator for good measure and start over? If I have hg issues, I guess the fun is just starting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Punting, going the new radiator route. Its probably time anyway (210k miles) Anyone have a way to translate the VIN (last 6-digits) sequential production number into a manufacturing date? Two parts places in town want to know whether its before or after 4/97... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Punting, going the new radiator route. Its probably time anyway (210k miles) Anyone have a way to translate the VIN (last 6-digits) sequential production number into a manufacturing date? Two parts places in town want to know whether its before or after 4/97... there should be a production date on the bottom of the driver's door, assuming it's original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 (edited) The saga continues, gets worse. Mystery solved: I discovered that I'd bungled the thermostat (put it in backwards, what was I thinking!?) I finished the new radiator install (that I didn't really need), did a 'proper' coolant fill, and started the engine. It cranked a while like it had sat too long without running, not firing, and I heard one knock sound as I let off the key, didn't turn over. Next time it started and there was immediate engine noise like low oil pressure (loud knocking). I'm not an expert in EJ25 DOHC engine sounds, all I know is my EA82 and EJ22 when they have various non-death noises, so that is my frame of reference. I let it run at idle, and the knocking sounds quieted down significantly, and I continued the air bleeding process. After a few minutes I increased rpm slightly, and it quit. Seized? It wasn't long enough for the temp needle to rise to its normal position, thermostat wasn't open (lower radiator hose cold), upper hose hot. Recall that this car was briefly driven highway speeds and at least twice (10 min each) at idle (post-highway drive troubleshooting) with a backwards thermostat. Since this is an interference engine I may have caused major damage but I'm not sure the cause. While waiting for the radiator to cross the country in shipping, the car was moved around the yard a few times without engine noise (cooling system intact). Since the oil pump is crank driven, can it be low oil pressure? If the timing belt skipped a few teeth, would it explain these symptoms? I don't have a lot of history on this car, just bought it last fall. As far as I know PO had a JDM engine installed at 170K with new head gaskets, I've put 5K on it with no problems, now has 210K. I'll check codes but I don't think CEL was on during any of these incidents. Edited August 21, 2009 by 89Ru confusing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 More info: Yesterday when it stalled there were no bad engine noises, and no obvious coolant from the tailpipe. Checked codes and saw P0301 / P0302 (misfire) which I've seen before and (whether wrong or not) attribute it to corrosion on a connector (somewhere there's a helpful post on this topic) This morning took off both outer tb covers, belt is tight. Spun the crank around two full revs of the pulley and it feels ok (same as the ej22, compression and release past tdc at each half-turn of the crank pulley) nothing appears seized. Despite this, first time I'm hesitant to turn the key on a subaru! I'm thinking the car had a stroke causing low oil pressure (clog in some narrow passage) somehow related to the bungled thermostat Tear down to oil pump and check o-ring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 Checked the timing marks (w/o crank mark yet, still covered) and with the driver side dohc cam double marks lined up top/bottom, the pass side marks are one tooth offset. Will begin searching whether this can cause all the symptoms in this verbose post...still unknown how the cams skipped a tooth but I'm betting on a partial cam seizure, hoping not! Could have skipped during the last hard start (haven't cranked it since), sounded like chj-jeeeeeeer chj-jeeeeeeer (low compression?) Need to save this car from its worst enemy (me!) Storm last night knocked a branch down that clobbered and spider-webbed the windshield, insult to injury! The house is divided whether this car will survive the blunder, and my future handiwork :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 Took a while (mostly reading and re-reading dohc-lore, shopping for ej22 replacements shhhhh) but I finally got the dohc re-timed, slept on it, re-measured timing, handspun it around a few more times (delay tactics), spoke the mantra (embrace the interference engine...), convinced myself to be content with a 3000 lb lawn ornament, gave it up to Father, cranked it, and it started! Having thought this engine was doomed, I stared at it running in disbelief for a while, expecting sudden loud noises. Still might be in for surprises, so far it has only been up to temp twice, burping, hasn't left the driveway, but no codes . Here's a few notes, one noob to another. Driver side cams: Not having the special tool, a rectangular piece of wood cut to fit into the cams on the crank side gets pinched nicely when the belt is taken off. Top cam wants to spin ccw, bottom cam spin tendency is cw. They move off the marks though, so wrenches are needed for the tbelt installation to make small adjustments. The left side (drivers) cams are prone to snap at any moment when not held, some balancing of 17mm wrenches to get both to line up is necessary, a third arm would help here. Both snapped anyway mostly because I wasn't expecting the amount of force required to keep position. A right-angle mirror helps line up the exhaust cam notches if doing on-car. When in doubt, count teeth especially if re-installing a belt without (worn off) marks. When the last (lower smooth) idler is put on, left cams rotate off marks due to belt tension but when the (old style) tensioner is wedged left, its bolts tightened, and its pin pulled, marks come back into line after the crank is spun to take up tbelt slack. Never mind the double marks on the cams, exactness is desired and these aren't the marks to use unless one enjoys endless re-measuring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 When it rains it pours. Hopefully that thing is straightened out now that it has had it's fun with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 Yes it sure has. Today started it and had the low oil pressure knock (my guess), topped it off with a quart and the noise went away next start. Drove around the neighborhood, nothing newsworthy. Have to admit I'm a bit too familiar with the knacka knacka on older subes but this is the first I've heard it on on ej's. One fix on ea's was to tear down to the oil pump, same for ej's? Wouldn't think I'd have low oil pres from only down a quart. Sometime in the (near) future will replace the oil pump o-ring and tighten loose screws if any inside oil pump... Wasn't leaking oil through crank seal. More trivia: the crank timing sprocket doesn't have the guard above it to prevent belt slippage during periods where the tensioner is compressed and catching up to tighten a slack belt, somewhere I read this was added back on later models in 1997, might have been removed for a period of time (I think my '95 ej22 has the tbelt slip guard). May explain the tbelt slip, but weird thing is that only the right side exhaust cam appeared to be slipped one notch (late). All other cams were timed ok...could have measured wrong, some of the work was done by flashlight and mirror plus squinting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 A friend and I had the idea a few years ago to open a repair shop and call it Midnight Motors, because we always seem to end up working on cars in the middle of the night. :-p I have no idea about the suspected oil pressure related knock. Got a gauge to check it with before condemning the pump? Does it sound like valve train noise or are we talking bottom end? (more like middle on a Subaru I guess) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 A shop here in fair Annapolis had the same idea (MARS, Midnight Auto Repair Service) great minds think alike. Don't have any gauges, just checked HF, they have one that goes up to 160 psi for cheap. Any better? I'd like to have one at least 200 psi to check cylinder pressure as well. Have to search where to tie into the oil system. EndWrench's 'insider info' mentions light engine knock when cold is 'normal' beginning in 1997, although they say 'virtually undetectable' from inside the cabin, I heard this one easily inside the car. thanks for ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.