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Can I use a 1 to 5 ratio of E85 and Reg Gas?


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12 replies to this topic

#1 machthree

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 09:28 AM

Well, I got my CO emissions to 20.025 (20 is passing). Was as 47!
Basically, putting the CAT back on it.

I need to get a little leaner. I'm going to do a fresh oil change and add a gallon of E85 to the tank. Anyone done this to lower CO slightly?

Any other ideas. The CAT muffler and PCV routing to intake is the only emissions components on the car.

TX

#2 Scoobywagon

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 09:46 AM

I'm not sure that'll help, but I can't come up with a reason that it will hurt, either. Then again, you live in Colorado and its winter, so my guess is that MOST of the gas you get will be somewhere around E85 anyway.

#3 XCSP700

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 06:23 PM

I don't see how it could hurt. a 195 degree thermostat might get you there

either way get the car good and hot before the test and don't let it sit too long between parking it and getting it tested. 10 min tops.

what are your readings for hc and nox?

#4 skishop69

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 07:56 PM

I know I posted this somewhere before (search E85), but you can't run E85 in older vehicles. At all.... Even diluting it is not a good idea. Ethanol eats rubber and older generations of plastics for lunch. Not to mention, it's not going to have a reduction effect on your CO output. In fact, because of it's lower BTU rating and not having the engine tuned for it, CO will be worse. Excessive CO is 'usually' caused by being too rich or burning oil (bad valve seals, rings...) Pull the air filter completely, run premium and advance the timing about 6 degrees to start with. If you're trying to pass emissions, this will also work. Go down to the Broomfield airport and get some low lead 101. That's what it used to be called. It's oxygenated 101 octane. The extra oxygen in the fuel will reduce CO. % gallons straight is all you'll need and it won't hurt anything. I've done this many times myself.

#5 Ionlyhave3suubs

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 08:07 PM

Caution on the avgas (aviation gas) the lead levels in this fuel is much higher than the old automotive leaded gas. Low lead compares it to the older avgas, not to automotive gasoline. Use of leaded fuels in vehicles with a converter can damage the catalytic converter. This information comes from a close friend of mine who is an aircraft mechanic.

Ps. Running aircraft fuel in street vehicles is illegal. Highway taxes are not assessed on aviation fuel. I would not risk getting caught with that in my tank.

#6 Scoobywagon

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 09:40 PM

Getting caught with it would be a bit of trick, as, unlike diesel, it is not dyed depending on its tax status. If you drive a diesel vehicle and they find red in your tank, you're hosed. But AvGas isn't dyed, so there's really no way to tell unless they're going to pull a sample of your fuel and have it labbed. And theres really just NO WAY they're going to foot that bill.

A valid point is raised regarding alcohol (ethanol) and plastics and rubber. However, its darn near impossible to get non-ethanol fuel any more. Not that it can't be done, but most commercially available fuels can be classified as E10. So it isn't like the car is just going to suddenly burst into flames or anything. Just keep an eye on the fuel lines and, if you notice a problem, change the fuel lines. no problem.

#7 NorthWet

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 11:04 PM

Ethanol is commonly used as an oxygenator for gasoline. Oxygenated gasoline is commonly required (at least seasonally) on at least the US West Coast. Much/most Regular gasoline (on the US West Coast) already has up to 10% ethanol, and this mixture has been available for at least the last 20 years. I have used this mixture in my cars for at least the last 20 years. Other than slightly lower fuel mileage, no obvious problems have occurred.

I do not know if an ethanol mixture (above what the OP probably is already using) will lower CO numbers on his emissions test. I also do not know whether E85 will mix properly with "E10" or if there will be some miscibility issues; I suspect not, otherwise "flexing" back and forth between E85 and non-E85 would be impractical.

Avgas IS dyed. This is done to provide visual identification of what fuel is actually in the aircraft's tanks. Aircraft are certified to use particular fuels, and it is illegal (and dangerous) to use non-certificated fuel in an aircraft engine. (IIRC, 100LL is blue, 80 is red, and 100/130 is dyed green.)

#8 skishop69

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 02:30 PM

Correct on the LL101 being blue. Incorrect for the other chaps friend on the lead content. The lead content is non existent, hence the outdated terminology of low lead... You go in with a 5 gallon can and top it off. Run the car down to 'E' at your own home and add the five gallons of 101. There is NO WAY it is going to ruin your CAT. I used to run LL101 in both my first Brats and up the timing 8 degrees when we would take them out to the sand dunes. No one is going to 'bust' you for running the 101. There isn't even an agency set up to monitor that on the roadways....

Now back to ethanol..... True ethanol is used as an oxygenator, however the main reason it is employed is to raise the octane rating during winter due to the colder, more dense air to stop detonation. It is also added to help absorb moisture from the air and keep it from separating in your fuel and causing runability issues.

Now, to straighten out E10 and E85. Standard pump gasoline has up to 10% ethanol in it. This amount is in no way going to have an adverse effect on fuel system components and will have a minute reduction on your fuel mileage. E85 is 85% ethanol. HUGE difference! I will say it again... YOU CAN NOT RUN E85 FUEL IN AN OLDER VEHICLE WITHOUT DAMAGING FUEL SYSTEM COMPONENTS. That level of ethanol will quickly deteriorate your fuel lines, internal carbuerator parts, older injectors and fuel pump. It also takes serious retuning to get the maximum power out of it's reduced BTU rating. Newer vehicles run stainless steel fuel lines or lines with specially developed polymers to stand up to the ethanol. The system has to monitor the O2 readings and constantly adjust (at a rate of hundreds of times per second) timing, injector pulse width, fuel pressure and to sample the fuel to determine the actual ethanol percentage as it does vary quite a bit. Saying that running E85 you're not just going to burst into flames is like saying "I can kill and elephant with a .22" The degredation of the components at that level of ethanol is very rapid. I'm federally certified for emissions, I'm the E85 tech at the dealer and I've participated in several field tests of the use of E85 in vehicles. I've seen what can happen to older vehicles when you use it. You want to take that slim chance that you might be the weenie at the roast, your call.

True that diluting gas with 1 gallon of E85 will most likely not cause any major damage, HOWEVER... since most of us don't have x-ray vision and can't see the internal condition of fuel lines, carbs, injectors and fuel pumps, I say be VERY careful with this. In a controlled environment it's still dangerous, but easily managed. Out on the road in the real world, the wrong combination of circumstances leads to a 30 second inferno. Sorry if I'm being over dramatic, but I've seen it firsthand.

E85 damages components in older cars. PERIOD. End of story. Levels above 10% in gasoline are going to cause slower degredation of components in older cars and eventually failures.

#9 Ricearu

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 02:48 PM

Give it a fresh oil change ALWAYS before smoggin a car. I used ROTELLA T 15w40 and also you would want to advance your timing, your HC will go up, but your CO will go down. basically making a LESS complete burn of fuel, creating less CO, but having more fuel in the exhaust gas.

#10 NorthWet

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:17 PM

From the Shell website:

"Avgas 100 LL with lead content of less than 0.56 gm/ litre means that Shell Avgas is suitable for aircraft original certified to operate on Avgas 80/87."

100LL contains Tetra-Ethyl Lead, just nowhere near what the high octane rated, non-Low-Lead avgas uses. It was developed because the higher TEL content was causing excessive sparkplug fouling in certain engines.

If you use avgas other than 82UL (essentially automotive unleaded without the additives), it will poison your catalytic converter.

#11 skishop69

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:29 PM

IF you run it on a regular basis. One 5 gallon run will not hurt it in any way. Like I said, I ran it for at least 3 0r 4000 miles of offroad time in the Brats and never had a CAT or smog issue. I'm not trying to be an rump roast here, but this subject is one I have extensive experience and first hand knowledge of. Using E85 is far more destructive than LL101

#12 machthree

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:43 PM

Great comments and feedback. I put one gal of E85 in to 5 gals of premium. It seems to be running hotter. power is off slightly. Oil was dirty from not having the blow by exhausted by vacuum so I did a change.

Back in the day, my dad taught me to adjust timing in Denver to about 6 degrees advanced past standard to adjust for 16% less oxygen in air density.
We didn't use a timing light (lazy) but would run the distributor up until knock or ping under load. Then back off a tad. Hillbilly scientific.

I want to advance the timing on this Loyale. The distributor is maxed to the left of slot? Which way is advancing - Turning the distributor clockwise or counter?

I hate the dyno test. My 88 is getting abused on the dyno. CV's are bad already and the 10 minute test isn't helping. Any way thanks for all of the advice. I'm only off by a RCH so hopefully these things will get me passed.

I don't know how to lean out the motor any other way? It is an X turbo with MPFI?

It is really a shame messing with the original setup on this car - No Cat / KN filter, larger exhaust, and oil catch for blow by and no pvc. This car EA82 had about 40% more power than my stock EA82, and really fun to drive. The suspension is set to stiff (rally), and it reminds me of my old MG's.

Thanks for the comments and I will keep you posted on the re-test.

#13 machthree

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 12:08 AM

Well, I got my CO emissions to 20.025 (20 is passing). Was as 47!
Basically, putting the CAT back on it.

I need to get a little leaner. I'm going to do a fresh oil change and add a gallon of E85 to the tank. Anyone done this to lower CO slightly?

Any other ideas. The CAT muffler and PCV routing to intake is the only emissions components on the car.

TX

Well >>> I PASSED YaHooooo 19.2 of 20 on CO - Changed oil and added a gal of E85 ... Plated and now ready to put it back to straight pipe and blow by to oil drip filter instead of intake. Back to monster EA82 power. Sorry, but the stiff shocks and rides like a sports car is too much fun for a 4 wheel drive.




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