Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

Polish Me Head


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 Mugs

Mugs

    Subaru Fanatic!

  • Members
  • 544 posts
  • Spokane & Hobart, Wa.

Posted 12 December 2013 - 12:01 AM

Ok so I have enough "parts" to build a NA 2.5 SOHC for my 2000 OBS. I am currently working on the heads (all the valves were bent) so I am in the process of cleaning the heads up and getting new valves in (this includes machine work as well)
 
I was thinking about polishing the intake and exhaust ports as well, is this going to make much a of a difference in performance, when combine with Delta torque cams? 
 
Or should I just leave well enough alone, get the cams, and build the motor. 
 
Also I was thinking about splitting the case I have because it had a slight 5 second "piston" slap on start up when really cold. It was consistent and never did it the rest of the day after start up. It had been only doing this for about a week before the engine was replaced because of the noise. 
 
All the cross hatching looks good, and I can't hear anything when I crank it over by hand. 
 
I was thinking about splitting the case and putting new bearings, and rings in it just to be on the safe side. Or do I just risk it and see what happens. 
 
If I do split the case I might as well do a piston upgrade (just trying to squeeze a few more ponies out of it.) Any particular performance brand/kind you guys recommend? 
 
Also I was going to order these valves , any body ever use them. The stealership wants like 17 bucks a valve, I am replacing all 16. 
 
Thanks for you help…
 
Yes I will be doing and exhaust upgrade too :eek:

Edited by Mugs, 12 December 2013 - 12:02 AM.


#2 Mugs

Mugs

    Subaru Fanatic!

  • Members
  • 544 posts
  • Spokane & Hobart, Wa.

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:10 PM

Seriously, Really, all the vast knowledge people have here about this subject and not a single reply. You all must be out Christmas shopping for suby parts or something  :rolleyes:


Edited by Mugs, 13 December 2013 - 11:13 PM.


#3 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 8,626 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:20 PM

All the performance pistons I know of are low compression. Go grab some phase 2 2.2 heads from a u-pull and build a Frankie.

Not sure how well that combo would accept delta cams. The phase 1 25D block with 2.2 heads needs a tune in order to deal with delta cams.

5 second rattle doesn't sound like piston slap. I'd pull the oil pan and wiggle the rod ends. Could have the very beginning of a bad rod bearing.

#4 86BRATMAN

86BRATMAN

    Subaru Master

  • Members
  • 3,253 posts
  • Tazewell Virginia

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:25 PM

Phase 2 ej22 heads have the same combustion chamber size as ej251, won't make a bit of difference to the compression ratio. But will make it so you don't have to change the exhaust manifold.

#5 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 8,626 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:30 PM

Then scratch that idea.
Junkyard heads, delta cams.

Cheap valves are cheap valves. Wouldn't trust them as far as I could smell them.

#6 Mugs

Mugs

    Subaru Fanatic!

  • Members
  • 544 posts
  • Spokane & Hobart, Wa.

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:52 PM

I have duel port and single port 2.2 heads, and I have thought about building a franky. 

 

My 2.5 block is out of an 03 Outback….I have 94 2.2 heads, and 96 2.2 heads, as well as 02 2.5 heads (which is the ones I am planning on polishing)

 

But for some reason or another I am leaning towards a full 2.5 build. I don't know why…guess maybe the fact that I drive 50 miles a day to and from work and 300 miles one way to home on the weekends has something to do with it. Don't feel like putting all that money into 92+ octane gas for it. 

 

Any way' we'll see.

 

Ya I'll pull the pan off when I get back home next week.

 

 

Phase 2 ej22 heads have the same combustion chamber size as ej251, won't make a bit of difference to the compression ratio. But will make it so you don't have to change the exhaust manifold.

 
So what your saying is I could use my 96 or 2000 2.2 heads on the 2.5 block and essentially be building a 2.5? and then add cams.
 
I know on the last franky I built it was a 2003 2.5 block with 97 2.2 heads, with 1100 delta torque cams, and it screamed. So given that situation I would need to use my 2000 2.5 heads to build a "stock" 2.5? 
 
I'll pony up the dough for OEM valves. Unless anyone else has a suggestion? 
 
BUT NOW back to my original question….is polishing out the rough castings (or maybe even do a bit of porting) on the head, worth the effort on this application. I know in the carbed world sure…but fuel injected at this level?????

Edited by Mugs, 14 December 2013 - 12:09 AM.


#7 heartless

heartless

    Do YOU Subaru?

  • Members
  • 2,649 posts
  • Central Wisconsin

Posted 14 December 2013 - 09:59 AM

no expert, but seems to me it would be a lot of work for minimal gain.



#8 86BRATMAN

86BRATMAN

    Subaru Master

  • Members
  • 3,253 posts
  • Tazewell Virginia

Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:04 AM

No Mugs, phase 2 is only 99-01 for the ej22. But being a 00 model car you'll run into some other issues running phase 1manifold off phase 2 ecu.

#9 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 8,626 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:32 AM

BUT NOW back to my original question….is polishing out the rough castings (or maybe even do a bit of porting) on the head, worth the effort on this application. I know in the carbed world sure…but fuel injected at this level?????


From what I understand there isn't a whole lot of wiggle room in these heads for extra porting.
Port matching (grind out the openings to fit the shape of the gasket) is about the most I would do, and just knock down any really rough spots, but I wouldn't go hog wild on it.
Might let out a few ponies on the top end.

I don't see any compelling reason to spend hundreds of dollars on valves when you can get a set of junkyard heads for like $100.

#10 ivans imports

ivans imports

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 2,928 posts
  • lumby bc canada

Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:36 AM

I ported the heck outa mine intake and exhaust and put in colt cams heads work great make sure you check valve guide heights



#11 cal_look_zero

cal_look_zero

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 611 posts
  • Grass Pants, OR

Posted 14 December 2013 - 12:44 PM

Let me be clear; I am not posting the following to be discouraging.

That being said, throwing performance parts at a frankenmotor is a huge waste of money. After I had built my 25D/22E frankenmotor with flat top pistons, delta cams, msd coil, intake, 2" exhaust, grimmspeed phenolic spacers, 370cc Nissan injectors, Perrin LWCP, and a pro tune on perfect power 6... I was making 123hp/145tq and had spent about $2500 including the tune. And it NEVER ran quite right. Some days it was great and torquey, other days it would crap the bed when I put my foot into it.

After I blew that engine up, I built a hybrid EJ257 block with EJ205 heads turbo engine with catless up pipe, catless turboback exhaust, and a tune, and made 225hp/305tq for about $2800 including the tune. Granted it was a lot of work to merge the harnesses and do the swap, but the return on investment was well worth it.

________________________________________________________

I just built a 251/22E frankenmotor for a customer, totally stock everything except head gaskets, and it drives beautifully. I would say to leave cams and other parts out of the equation, because in my experience they only serve to muck things up.



#12 Mugs

Mugs

    Subaru Fanatic!

  • Members
  • 544 posts
  • Spokane & Hobart, Wa.

Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:12 PM

No Mugs, phase 2 is only 99-01 for the ej22. But being a 00 model car you'll run into some other issues running phase 1manifold off phase 2 ecu.

So why can't I run my existing phase II (2000) 2.2 heads on the 2.5 block and use my existing intake as well? I mean hey the car is a 2000 OBS so its is a phase II EJ22 right??

 

If the phase II heads are the same volume/size as a 2.5 then essentially I am building a 2.5..correct..or am I missing something??



#13 86BRATMAN

86BRATMAN

    Subaru Master

  • Members
  • 3,253 posts
  • Tazewell Virginia

Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:01 PM

Yeah, you got it. The only difference will be that the heads will still be single port, which kinda limits the header options versus the dual port ej25 heads. I would say there would be a slight difference in cam profile between 2.2 and 2.5.

#14 ivans imports

ivans imports

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 2,928 posts
  • lumby bc canada

Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:18 PM

hair strait back ! I ruined two very pricy motors before I figured out that the con rod was snaping in the center put in Manly H beams and no more problems. I did notice a fair power diference with the colt cams VS stock ones exact engine setup one with cams one without. Mind you I had full dragrace cams built for my phase 2  2.51 turbo. Was about 20 % percent more power and snap than its stock cam clone



#15 86BRATMAN

86BRATMAN

    Subaru Master

  • Members
  • 3,253 posts
  • Tazewell Virginia

Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:44 AM

On a side note, Ivan I sent you a pm about a part a week or so ago if you could check that and get back to me.

#16 Mugs

Mugs

    Subaru Fanatic!

  • Members
  • 544 posts
  • Spokane & Hobart, Wa.

Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:59 PM

From what I understand there isn't a whole lot of wiggle room in these heads for extra porting.
Port matching (grind out the openings to fit the shape of the gasket) is about the most I would do, and just knock down any really rough spots, but I wouldn't go hog wild on it.
Might let out a few ponies on the top end.

I don't see any compelling reason to spend hundreds of dollars on valves when you can get a set of junkyard heads for like $100.

 

 

Because around here if it has a 2.5 in it, or is a decent shape the yard pulls motors and then sells them for like 1800 bucks. Only the old school EJ stuff stays intact in the yards. So unless the valves are the same for 2.2 and 2.5 I have to buy new valves. And if they are the same then I am going to canabolize the 96 2.2 heads for their valves. 
 
 

 

Yeah, you got it. The only difference will be that the heads will still be single port, which kinda limits the header options versus the dual port ej25 heads. I would say there would be a slight difference in cam profile between 2.2 and 2.5.

 

I wonder what type of performance I would get out this combo. I once had a VW Baja with a 1776 single port in it. It was done that way specifically just for torque. But with VW, duel port and single port is referenced to the intake manifold not the exhaust. I could always just use inferno fab single port header. 

 

Plus this means I would have to take apart my perfectly good and running motor, which I am not to keen on doing. In the event that my plans fail and I need to put the EJ22 back in. I think I will just build a 2.5, put some cams in it, get a header/exhaust set up and call it a day. At least this way I essentially have a motor with "0" miles on it, well if I split my case and do all that. But at least the heads, an block have about 60k less on them, then my current engine. We'll see. When I get home here next week, I do some more poking around in my shop. But they way its looking I may end up with about 1000 bucks into this thing, and for that kind of money I might as well try and find a good used 2.5 and save the hassle of trying to build heads, and build a block. But if I did build everything it would all be new, and that part is cool. Plus the satisfaction of doing it all myself. 

 

Sheesh all this just cuz I want a 2.5 with a bit more punch in my car, and not the 2.2 



#17 86BRATMAN

86BRATMAN

    Subaru Master

  • Members
  • 3,253 posts
  • Tazewell Virginia

Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:23 PM

There is a guy on one of the legacy forums who dyno'd something like 130whp on a similar setup. I'm not sure the exact details other than ej251 block ej222 heads in a 99 legacy L 5mt. He does have intake and exhaust mods.

Edited by 86BRATMAN, 15 December 2013 - 02:24 PM.


#18 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 8,626 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:58 AM

Because around here if it has a 2.5 in it, or is a decent shape the yard pulls motors and then sells them for like 1800 bucks. Only the old school EJ stuff stays intact in the yards. So unless the valves are the same for 2.2 and 2.5 I have to buy new valves. And if they are the same then I am going to canabolize the 96 2.2 heads for their valves.


You don't have a u-pull-it yard nearby?

I'm pretty sure the valves changed between phase 1 & 2 heads.

#19 ivans imports

ivans imports

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 2,928 posts
  • lumby bc canada

Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:58 AM

Phase one head vs phase two 1-3/4 inch diff phase 2 way longer and biger valves



#20 Mugs

Mugs

    Subaru Fanatic!

  • Members
  • 544 posts
  • Spokane & Hobart, Wa.

Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:58 PM

You don't have a u-pull-it yard nearby?

I'm pretty sure the valves changed between phase 1 & 2 heads.

 

Ya I have 3 pick and pull style yards nearby. But if its newer then say 96….maybe 99 they pull the motors and trans and sell them outright. In fact they go through and do the head gaskets, t-bets, the whole nine yards, and then sell them for bookoo bucks. 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users