mattslote Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Hey USMB, it's been a few years! I hope you didn't miss me. Just picked up a Forester on the cheap. The timing belt had failed (skipped a tooth, as best I can tell) and all the evidence I've seen so far indicates there's been no damage on the inside of the engine. And until I know otherwise, I'm going to continue under that assumption. I replaced a couple idlers, put on the new belt, reattached the battery, went to crank it and....nothing. Turns out the battery was toast. But even the new battery couldn't turn the engine without extra help from jumper cables or a 20 amp charger. Checked the spark at the distributor, and if the shock wasn't enough, the arc to the block was also proof. Now that I'm writing this, I'm feeling like I need to do a little more homework before anyone can give me a good diagnosis. But could the starter be failing? Even with a bad starter, why isn't the engine turning over? For what it's worth I think I can hear the fuel pump running. Anyone else run into something like this? Thanks for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 feel good about the timing? you must use the tab with the dash/line at the back of the crank sprocket - NOT the arrow/triangle at the front. try some starting fluid sprayed into the intake when cranking. maybe a compression test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattslote Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Oh man. If it is the timing, that would be great. I'll try that and the starter fluid. Then fuel pump/filter if I have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattslote Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 Finally got the time to look at the car again. The timing belt position looked fine but I reinstalled it just in case. Double checked plugs and spark wires which all seem fine. Got the starter fluid, opened the butterfly valve and sprayed a little in there and still no firing when I cranked. That part had me stumped, because even an engine with poor compression or no gas really should do something when there's fuel as volatile as starter fluid in the cylinders, so I took to google. I found a page on the outback forum where I guy with the same problem needed a new knock sensor. This youtube video ( ) had a nice idiot-proof tutorial on checking the knock sensor, and I was getting ~2 volts on the multimeter when I should have been getting 5. Amazon is delivering a new sensor tomorrow. Hopefully that's what I'll need. Followup questions: Why does Subaru charge $100+ for a new knock sensor? Should I be okay getting the $15 sensor from Amazon? It seems like a pretty simple piece of technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Yeah. there are some parts where subaru specific is worth the extra $$$. But knock sensors are not one of them. The cheap ones from ebay, amazon etc. work fine. To be clear, you have the motor cranking now but not starting? Or is it not turning over yet? If it's not cranking and the motor isn't seized then it's one of the following - battery, battery cables/ground/contacts, starter solenoid, starter. If you know you have clean connections and a good battery you can get a good used starter for about $25. off someone on row52.com and move forward. If it is cranking but not starting it's usually one of three things. No spark - you've confirmed. No fuel - you've tried spray. Timing related - Check and triple check belt. Are the crank sprocket and cam sprockets original to this car? There were a few variations on these years and the wrong ones will send incorrect signals to the computer and result in a no start. Bad cam and crank sensors. Worst case scenario is that the timing off before you got it resulted in bent valves and that could very well cause a crank and no start. In which case a known good set of used heads and a head gasket job are a good solution. I've also installed JDM import EJ20 motors for about the same cost as a DIY head gasket job and love them. Just swap the original intake manifold etc. and the original drivers cam pulley and the crank sprocket over and it will run the same. But again, this is worst case scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 how do you know the car only "skipped a tooth" - what did you find int eh TB system when you replaced stuff? broken belt or bad idler bearing? $15 (even $10) knock sensors have been fine for many people from what I read. pull a plug and see if it's wet with fuel - holding the gas pedal to the floor while cranking is the 'clear flood' maneuver for fuel injected cars. (longshot)maybe have someone crank-over the engine while you hold a strip of paper at the tail pipe. If it 'sucks in' - could be a bent valve. Leakdown test would be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattslote Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 To be clear, you have the motor cranking now but not starting? Or is it not turning over yet? If it's not cranking and the motor isn't seized then it's one of the following - battery, battery cables/ground/contacts, starter solenoid, starter. If you know you have clean connections and a good battery you can get a good used starter for about $25. off someone on row52.com and move forward. That's right. Cranking but not starting. Though that's what it's done since I got the timing belt on. The starter seems strong, so I'm going to leave it for the time being. how do you know the car only "skipped a tooth" - what did you find int eh TB system when you replaced stuff? broken belt or bad idler bearing? pull a plug and see if it's wet with fuel - holding the gas pedal to the floor while cranking is the 'clear flood' maneuver for fuel injected cars. (longshot)maybe have someone crank-over the engine while you hold a strip of paper at the tail pipe. If it 'sucks in' - could be a bent valve. Leakdown test would be better. When I got the car the timing belt was off. Previous owner said it skipped a tooth, and one of the idlers was shot. I'm taking him at his word because I haven't seen anything that indicates otherwise. I did pull the plugs yesterday to inspect and check for signs of damage. Everything looked good, and they didn't have fuel on them. Should they? Extra information: Since getting the car I got a new idler and replaced another that sounded bad, put on the new timing belt, and replaced the battery. I just picked up a compression tester and a fuel pressure gauge. If the knock sensor doesn't resolve the issues, I'll use those to see if there's compression/fuel problems. Last resort will be to pull the engine and see what I find. Previous owner also said they had a mechanic replace the head gasket in the last year, and the little bit of the gasket sticking out looks pretty new, as do the valve cover bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) I have read plenty of posts about bad knock sensors - in none of them was there a report of no-start as a symptom. scan the ECU for pending codes - maybe there's a clue? Edited June 20, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattslote Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 I've got an ECU scanner coming from Amazon with the knock sensor. I went through my history and found the posts about the knock sensor that got me started on this: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/111-gen-1-1995-1999/85481-1997-legacy-obw-cranks-no-start.html#/forumsite/20514/topics/85481?page=1 And my knock sensor only gave me 2 volts instead of 5. So even if it's not the only problem, it needed to be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattslote Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 The knock sensor and ECU reader today. Nothing different happened when tried to start the engine, even with starter fluid. ECU said there were no codes. Next steps: check fuel system and compression. I also think the gas might be old, so I'm going to try to check that too. But the car should still run with starter fluid, so I'm still stumped. Also more worried that there might not be any compression. Gotta do that tailpipe suction test that 1 Lucky Texan suggested. Any advice would be appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) cam and crank sensors must be good to fire engine. I occasionally read about bad crank sensors, but moreso in older cars. um, no chance any of the tabs at the back of the crank sprocket got broken off? Edited June 22, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montana tom Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 That is an interference motor. I have yet to see one break or slip a belt that did not bend the valves. I would pull a valve cover and turn the motor over by hand. If any valves are bent the rockers will be loose. The crank sprocket and left side cam sprocket must absolutely be original to that car. Is it possible the cam sprockets got switched (left & right )? That will make it not try to start. The tabs on the rear of the crank sprocket are also a good place to inspect, if somebody pried that sprocket off it is very easy to snap one off. It has been my experience that if the tabs get broken the car will not run... but... it will try to start, so probably not the crank sprocket. Cam, crank sensors not working should throw a code. In your first post you said the car will not crank without a battery charger helping, even with a new battery ... later you said it is cranking strong ? Did you fix something? Slow cranking without charger help could be an indicator that the bearings are trying to seize up on the crank, although i have not seen that happen on a boxer. Most likely you have bent valves . Pull and save at spaldings should have another motor cheap or maybe a set of heads. Foreign engines in Coeur D alene will have the 2.0 takeout engines available (800-552-1595) around $700 last I checked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattslote Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 @montana tom Bad valves have been something I always knew were a possibility, but you're really raining on my parade. I have the same engine in my '00 Legacy, and when it skipped a tooth a couple years ago it was just fine. I was really hoping this was the same deal. I don't know why the engine started cranking without the charger, but when I've been working on it more recently it hasn't needed any help. Will the sensors throw a code if the engine hasn't run and the computer's been reset? I can definitely check them. Will the same voltage test I used on the knock sensor work on the other sensors too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montana tom Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) LOL ; Sorry matt, don't mean to be a bummer. Maybe you will get lucky here. If you can, check compression (not all testers will fit down there) if you can't do that then pull a valve cover, and roll it over. You have to know what your looking for here... so look for the worst (bent valves)and hope for the best (unplugged connector). Not sure how to test the cam/ crank sensor. I'm sure somebody on u-tube shows how. I'm thinking that , you have spark , so you must be getting a signal from the cam/crank sensors. Oh and plugs not wet... stuck open valves and they can't get wet, as the fuel leaves as fast as it arrives. Check Your Valves... You don't want to know but ... you need to Know ! Good luck Edited June 22, 2016 by montana tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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