Skanky Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 What are the chances that my engine will get waterlogged because of a cold air intake? Is there anything i can do to prevent this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Do you drive into deep puddles often? How low set is the intake? Rain will not cause hydro-locking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skanky Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 I do drive through a few puddles but not to deep. The intake is well above the ground. You said rain will not damage the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 What are the chances that my engine will get waterlogged because of a cold air intake? Is there anything i can do to prevent this? What kind of car is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Rain will NOT cause hydro-lock. It takes more water than most rain storms can deliver. Keep in mind that any water that does enter will be turned into mist as it passes through the air filter. Mounted just inside the fender cavity, near the top, there is neglible risk of serious water ingestion. If the filter is set low and just behind an opening in the bumper, then it will take in more water, but I still wouldn't worry. All cars breathe in rain water, you can't avoid it, and it does no harm. Think about single seater race cars that race in the rain, they have very high compression ratios - like 14 to 1 - and often no more than a metal mesh air "filter". They don't hydro-lock.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skanky Posted August 10, 2004 Author Share Posted August 10, 2004 Thanks for the input. I can rest easier now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Any chance of a photo of the setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subie Gal Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 i personally know of 4 cars which have hydrolocked due to an Injun intake setup - one of them was only a 4" puddle... doh! this intake sits in the fender well near the fog lights and it's bad mojo not a good idea if you hit water often. you can avoid this type of intake or roll the dice an in the engine intake is fine but i do not recommend anything that penetrates the fender wall Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 QUOTE "but i do not recommend anything that penetrates the fender wall" What? I ran my Legacy with a 90 degree, downward bend ending in a velocity stack, inside the fender, coming from the stock air box. For 70k miles, once through a hub-high flood. No problems. The stock intake opening was in there in the first place. And the stock silencer does not separate water out, as has been heard on these pages before. I am now running a pipe from the engine top air box on my Imp, into the fender cavity. Not in any floods yet, but so far so good. Just to be sure of our definitions: Hydro-lock will cause "cavitation" of the pistons, due to the sudden shock of hitting incompressible water in the combustion chamber. Similar to pre-detonation. People who have ingested water and therefore damgaged their big-end bearings, did not hydro-lock. Agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subie Gal Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 DISAGREE . emphatically. when you ingest water in this boxer 4... you will bend rods and valves and it does not take much to do so. been there done that and seen it happen to others... to each their own. go on and install and intake which sneaks down behind your fog light... it's a free country thanks god! but... when you hydrolock your engine in a 3" puddle... we will all point and laugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddcomp Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 btw.. sucking water bends rods and valves in any engine not just suby myself i would not use a intake that puts the filter area anywhere near the road or in a low position.. at least not lower than stock anyways there are still lots of ways to have a good intake setup for cool air and not create problems that could happen a little thought before building is all it takes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 How on earth would valves bend due to water ingestion? Con-rods, yes, since the piston stops short. And, it's not the 3in puddle that you hit, it's the person in front who hits it and splashes the front of your own car. Honestly, have you ever thought about how much water enters the engine bay through the radiator opening? The fender cavity is not a worse place. I understand that a low set, frontal filter, just behind an opening can suck in more water....but someone tell me how that bends valves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I am still waiting to hear how valves are bent by water.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subie Gal Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 well since you asked First, learn how cams/valves work http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm valves that let the air/fuel mixture into the engine and the exhaust out of the engine. The camshaft uses lobes (called cams) that push against the valves to open them as the camshaft rotates; springs on the valves return them to their closed position. Lets see... do you think that intaking water... when you should be intaking Air means the valves can compress the 2 the same? ummmm..... no. water will not compress... and thus bends rods/valves - like i said, already hydrolocked one engine so i've been all through this... but hey! what do i know... i'm just a girl.... some discussions, reviews and cautions about bending valves with bad intake setups - click each link for full article/information: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message%5fid=119099&thread_style=flat Water doesn't compress like air, and you can easily bend valves and rods if you get any appreciable amount of water in the cylinders http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=753 too much water can't be vaporized instantly. The engine creates a lot of vacuum (0 - 750mmHg or 0 - 30inHg depending on engine RPM, altitude, and throttle), thus it sucks a lot of water instantly http://www.overlander.com.au/pg/equipment.php?id=4 So why all the dire warnings about avoiding water and dust ingress? The first problem is that water is incompressible, so if a cylinder gets even what seems like a small quantity of water going into it, it may stall the engine and possibly bend a connecting rod or worse. The higher the compression ratio of the engine, the more the likelihood of damage. http://www.pps.net.au/4wdencounter/4wdtech/water.html Air Intake - Water and engines do not mix very well, and when they do it almost always results in bent pistons, valves and crankshaft. If you think this sounds expensive your right. http://www.cardomain.com/item/AEM21474B Warning for AEM CAI INTAKE: To avoid the possibility of introducing water into the intake system and hydrolocking your engine, the use of the AEM Air Bypass Valve is highly recommended. http://www.automotivearticles.com/Cold_Air_Intake_Install.shtml WARNING! Because this intake puts the air filter very very close to the ground, make sure you put the lower engine cover back on and there are no holes in it. You do not want to drive through a puddle and suck all that water into your engine. Hydrolocking a motor because you were too lazy to take 5 minutes to reattach the undercover would be a fate we wouldn't wish upon our most mortal of enemies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I particularly like the Overlander quote: "possibly bend a connecting rod or worse" No mention of bent valves. I know how an engine operates, I do not need links to howstuffworks. The rods bend when they try to force the pistons up and meet the water. I cannot think of any engine that has valves open at this part of the cycle. If the valves are open when the piston is at TDC, they will collide with the piston and bend, but that has nothing to do with water in the combustion chamber. I think some of these bent valves stories stem from smaller amounts of water, that work their way past pistons as "blow-by" and contaminate oil and cause seizure in camshaft bearings. Let's say an intake stroke takes in water and on the compression stroke, the water stays inside the combustion chamber. Now, as the piston moves away from BDC, the intake valve will be closing, the exhaust will be shut. As the piston moves up - well outward on our engines - the intake valve shuts, the gases present compress, the water doesn't, and suddenly there is only just enough volume for the water, some time before TDC. BANG! The piston and con-rod will flex, deform, or crack and the crankshaft stops dead. When this happens, the valves are SHUT. How can they have their stems bent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 this was a Jeep, not a Subie. If I recall the one cylinder that was really trashed had bent the exhaust valve. My theory was that the cylinder was full of water on the fireing stroke and the exhaust valve tried to open in a solidly compressed mass of water.It was so torn up it was hard to see exactly what had happened because the piston was broken too, the rod was bent, and had broken the cylinder wall. Could also have been bits of piston that hit the valve, or maybe it was forced to jump timing. The point was I did not spend a lot of time worring about exactly how the engine was trashed because it was totaly ruined. I just resolved never to have my intake below water level. I should point out that this owner's personal theory was that if he was reving hard enough a little water would not bother the engine. He was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 The exhaust valve opens quite some time after TDC. If the volume of water could fit at max compression, the exhaust valve would have plenty of space to open. Please try again :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THAWA Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 an in the engine intake is fine but i do not recommend anything that penetrates the fender wall You mean like the stock setup? but hey! what do i know... i'm just a girl... Why do you have to pull the sex card? Noone said anything about you being a girl so why even bring it up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legacy2.5 Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 subie gal, nice to see someone else who understands how in internal combustion engine works. you cant compress any liquid, and any given part of a motor will break/bend when you try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legacy2.5 Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 i have replaced many hydrolocked motors in my years of working om cars for a living and i have seen and replaced rods, valves, pistons, blocks, broken cams, all from hydro-locked motors from sport cars to little economy cars. i have said it before to many people on here go on "theory" on this site, insterad of listening to people who are trying to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THAWA Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 also for the record, you CAN compress liquids such as water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingbobdole Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 Wow, You guys and gals all love each other in here dontcha? I used to have a cold air in my Focus... I figured "hey, its a focus WHEN it breaks I have a couple extra bucks... I'll get a new one" Well one thing I will point out is that I had a magical device called a water trap on my car. I think it was made by K&N but I wouldn't swear to it. The thing saved me once, drove it through a puddle that looked shallow. I had driven there many times, but the rain had made the road sink, ended up being like a foot and a half deep. As I drove through the car got all loud as the water trap opened. About a month or so later I heard a rattle and then I ran over something. I looked in my mirror and that damn thing was rolling down the road. Got a hack saw and made my cold air a ram air, right next to the engine with a cold air box. Anyway all the water trap is is a one way valve that opens when the pressure at the filter is too high to suck. This only works when you totally submerge the filter but not the trap. Also I might add that the filter is usually oiled.... oil repels water. Last thing I'll add, I've hydrolocked engines before that were not mine just to rip them apart to see what happened. They break different every time! Who the heck cares how it happenes?! My old teacher has a VW bug piston with a valve sticking out of the top of it. It dropped out, turned 180 degrees and jammed into the piston. What are the chances of shutting off an engine without smashing that thing to bits? It's gotta be like a bazillion to one. Welcome to Earth where nothing happens the exact same every time. Its designed this way just to piss you off. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 were run up the side of the front of the roof if I recall correctly. I think it was a commonly available kit for vehicles like Land Rovers and Toyota Land Cruisers. (perhaps an Ozzie or Kiwi can help here) It seemed to offer the high intake the old military Jeeps had as well as picking up cooler and cleaner air away from the dust. Fact, in my years as a mechanic I only tore down one water trashed engine. Fact, it had a bent exaust valve. I am not sure exactly why it bent but it was. Fact, it does not much matter why the valve bent becuase when you turn an engine into a high speed hydraulic press that is going to operate a couple of hundred times a minute it will trash the engine if it gets enough water. By the way I like that water trap idea. On my Subaru I have left the intake stock as it gets the nastiest operation I give my cars. Last Xmas it got a several hundred mile drive with five people, presents, and luggage through a pouring rainstorm over mountains where the rain turned to snow. When it got to the other end it went through flooded streets that would have done the air intake if it was down by the bumper like my BMW. Then it went down a snow covered gravel road. The only malfunction was my wife putting a CD in the gap above the radio in the dark. If 2 or 3 HP at WOT is important enough to you move your air intake, but mine is doing fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenSisters Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 This intrigues me. Please tell us more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 If you cannot understand why "why" is important, don't involve yourself in this thread. You all speak as if hydro-locking was an everyday occurence, but no-one has yet given an explanation of how it would ever bend valves. I grew up in Singapore, and the torrential rain, and subsequent flooding never gave rise to any stories of hydrolocked engines. If it was common, a climate like Singapore's would reflect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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