Philbiker

I recommend going to http://www.edmunds.com and looking up the car there. They will have a pop-up where you can put in some information and some dealers will email you. Internet prices are always fine. I just bought a 2004 Legacy 35th wagon. Sticker was something like 23.6K I paid something like $18.8K. Invoice was somewhere around $21K.

If you're considering the Passat Wagon, be sure to take a good look at the Legacy wagon as well. IMO it's a lot more car for the buck, especially if you get one of the 2004s. With the 2005 redesign, dealers and Subaru of America are looking to unload Legacies and the incentives are sensational. AWD on a Passat Wagon is going to mean a price tag into the 30s. When I was recently shopping I fully intended to buy a Forester, but after test driving I liked the Legacy a lot better. My wife has a Passat, it has a very upscale interior, particularly compared to the Forester. It really feels substantial and is very attractive. Good reliability so far, but it's only 2 yrs/32K miles so far.

Having just gone through the process of buying a new 2004 Legacy, I don't think either of those answers is exactly right regarding the "Legacy GT". First of all, what's a "GT" in general? "GT" in car parlance stands for "Grand Touring". It's generally a sporty car that can be used everyday and for highway trips. A GT car is not a "sports car", but a "sporty car". I own a 1995 Kawasaki GPZ1100 motorcycle, which is very much regarded as a "GT Bike". "GT" cars are usually achieved by taking a family car and adding sporty styling cues, wheels, and suspension upgrades. So what's the difference between the 2004 Legacy GT and a "regular" Legacy L or L 35th anniversary edition? The GT has the 55% rear / 45% variable torque distribution AWD system that is only common with the top of the line VDC Outback. It also has a limited slip rear differential. Neato ground effects A unique wheel style with a more aggressive suspension, lowering it something like one or two inches when compared to the "L" or "L 35th Anniversary" models. Probably has sport tires also. In automatic transmission versions, there is a mode that allows you to manually shift gears if you want to. (the style is commonly known as "tiptronic", though that's a brand name, like facial tissues are known as Kleenex) Lastly, the interior is gussied up like crazy with an 8 way power driver's seat, lots more plastic wood than the regular Legacy, leather upholstry, side air bags (the only way to get them in a Legacy unfortunately). The new 2005 GT is going to have all of the above and a Turbo engine I believe. IMO it would be a better car if they'd put the H6 in there rather than a turbo version of the problematic 2.5 Phase II.

As an avid motorcyclist I really dislike daytime running lights. The fact that all motorcycles have DRLs is one of the few things that helps us out with being noticed, which could be a life and death proposition. In most accidents between cars and motos, the car driver claims that they "never saw" the biker. Motorcyclists need all the help we can get for road visibility. Putting DRLs on cars greatly diminshes this slight sight advantage that motorcyclists have with our lights. I would suspect that most motorcycle mounted police officers would agree with my POV. I've got to disable them on my '04 Legacy wagon.

I considered it, but the extended warrantee is far too pricey for me.

Hed gasket problems are endemic to the 2.5L engines, especially (but not limited to) the Phase I engines manufactured in the late 90s. What year and model is your car and what is the mileage?

Just wanted to follow up. I decided to take my chances on the 2.5 motor and bought a 2004 Legacy 35th Anniversary today. With the amount of money I had to put down, the difference between the Legacy and the the H6 made the OB 50% more money financed than the Legacy. Just too much difference for a less comfortable riding car. I really want to pay this off in two years, and can quite easily now. I called my insurance company and got quotes then ran the numbers on gas, and found that the difference in cost for gas/insurance in addition to the price is significant. I took a really bumpy road that's in lousy shape that I have to drive regularly home from the dealer, and it was smoothed out nicely by the Legacy's suspension. I've got my fingers crossed that I won't have major problems. Wish me luck. Reading the hybrid thread and doing research makes me think this may be the last gasoline powered car I ever buy. When premium is $10/gal and 87 is $8.50 I'll be darn happy to pay for that head gasket replacement. BTW it was raining cats and dogs for the drive home and darn if that Subaru didn't hold the road with the kind of confidence that my Quattro always gave me.

The 2004 end-of-model cycle prices are irresistable. Waiting will cost me thousands of dollars. Part of the reason I'm buying now is because of all the incentives.

General high maintenance costs. For instance the brakes are designed to last 20-30K miles, and require the replacement of both the pads and rotors at those intervals. I had to replace the front pads and rotors at 54K miles at a cost of $700. That was the third set including the ones that came with the car. Nice thing is Audi covers all the maintenance for the first few years (four now, three when I bought) so they replaced the first set on their dime, but once it was my dime, that's too much maintenance expense for me for a car that is basically a daily commuter. Actually, with the maintenance costs included the way they are in the first 4 years, it's a great car to lease. Not to own long-term though. But for someone who is a driving enthusiast who really values the performance, the requirements may not be so aggregious. And I found the seats uncomfortable on long trips, but that's a very personal thing - they just didn't fit me well and had leather which I have found that I hate. I could write a long list of things I loved about the A4 also.

The AWD in my Audi quattro is friggin' amazing. I've never felt even the slightest bit of slippage in any condition except snow where it slips quite easily due to the sport tires. If I put adequate tires on it I'm sure it would rule int he snow, too. My quattro I believe uses a torsen differential. As far as I'm concerned if you're looking for AWD, there are two companies that do it better than everyone else: Audi and Subaru.

The H6 auto does have 1-2-3-D so you can control it if you want to. Still not equivalent to a stick shift, I know, but better than many slushboxes.

Not recently. Look up reliability statistics on new post-Ford buyout Volvos. They are horrible! You'll have to do what I'm doing: buck up for an H6! Based on my experience with my A4 I would not buy another Audi. However, if I was looking to lease Audi would be at the top of my list with their 4 year/50K mile all maintenance deal.

My Kawasaki GPZ1100 motorcycle has a CR of 11:1 and it runs fine on 89, but 87 doesn't work very well. My A4 runs fine on 89. Guess I should stick with 89.

A timing chain huh? I did not know that! That's a money saver on a car I intend to put 200K miles on. I've read comments here regarding mileage in the 3.0s being almost the same as the 2.5 engines. Kinda makes the 2.5 not make sense. Have you ever tried 87 gas? The guy at my dealer said off the record that it will run fine on 87. I test drove the 35th Anniversary H6 and that's definitely the car I'm going to buy.

I have to say, I'm not offended, and my Audi has only broken down on me once, but that was once too many, and a large part of the reason it's being replaced. Also, I need to follow up and say that I've decided that the H6 35th Anniversary will be my next car, partly because I kind of want to avoid the 2.5 four. That is unless I really hate it when I test drive. If that happens I'll go for the 35th anniversary Legacy wagon and cross my fingers.

I'm again seriously considering the H6 35th Anniversary model, getting cold feet about the 2.5L engine. I've found that the 35th Ann model does not have leather (which I hate) and prices are very good now at the end of the model cycle. I'm going to test drive one tonight.

Prices are already very low on the 2004s in anticipation of the new 2005 release. I suspect that the 2005s will be significantly higher. I'm not talking MSRP/Invoice, those won't change much, but the actual selling prices are going to go up. For the sake of this explanation, you need to understand the most basic concepts of an internal combustion engine. The engine is basically a mechanism for moving air. There are two parts of the engine. First is the "bottom end", which holds pistons which go up and down to suck in and compress the air then blow it out. The action of these pistons moving air is basically what moves the car. The second part is the "top end" or "valvetrain". This contains the mechanism for letting the clean air in and sending the dirty air out. These two parts of the engine are manufactured separately then bolted together, and the material holding the airtight seal between them is called a "head gasket". The problem with the 2.5L subaru engine is that it tends to have Head Gasket failures, particularly the older pre-2000 ("Phase I") engine. When the head gasket fails the engine won't work right because the air that's supposed to go in and out controlled by the top end will leak into places in the engine where it's not supposed to go. In 2000 they redesigned the heads ("Phase II"), now they're simpler. Yes, all cars are going to have problems eventually, but there's reason to believe that the head gasket problem in this particular case is an engineering fault that should have been prevented. There is a bit of a belief that any 2.5L subaru is going to eventually have problems. Head Gasket replacement is a very expensive procedure, and sometimes major engine damage can orrur. Expect that you'll have to sink a $1500 repair into the car at about 120K miles, with a slim but real possibility that you'll have failure much sooner. One caveat: I've seen cars with head gasket failure at around 100K miles from Nissan, Dodge, and others. If I can get to 120K miles without a failure I'll consider it a "success". It'll certainly be less expensinve than a brake replacement every 20-30K that I'm doing with my Audi!

The 2.5 engine is problematic, but I'm buying a Legacy soon, too. I also hate the fake wood, it reminds me of an old early 80s Buick. My Audi A4 2.8 is loaded with beautiful burled REAL wood in the interior. That -really- makes the fake Subaru wood look cheezy. Good news is that the Legacy only has it on the front dash. In the Outback it's in the doors also. Go to Edmunds.com and look up your Legacy. There's a popup where you can get dealer prices. All your local dealers will email you with the prices they have. Go to http://www.subaru.com and use their dealer locator. You can look up inventory and get prices. I test drove the Outback but I really didn't like the trucky bumpy feel and high riding style. I greatly preferred the sporty ride of the 35th Ann. Legacy wagon. I can get past the fake wood. Don't be surprised if you have head gasket problems down the road, but a lot of the Phase II engines run with minimal problems. You should be able to get a great price and great incentives due to the fact that the new '05 Legacy is due out very soon.

At 58K miles, I'm on my third set of pads and rotors (including the factory ones) on the front of my Audi. They are designed to only last 20-30K miles and require replacement of both the rotors and pads when they wear out. Is that insane or what? Big part of the reason it's being replaced by a Subaru. :-\

I've seen cars from Nissan and others that have blown head gaskets between 100 and 140K. I don't think a HG at 140K is terribly unusual. If I were in your shoes and I liked the current Soobies I'd dump it. But don't sell it used, trade it in. The 2004s are at the end of the model cycle which means somewhat dated styling, but great deals with big incentives. 8 years and 140K miles is not bad in my book.

Really? It looks easy to change to me from the outside of the dash. The 2004 Legacy I'm planning on buying is going to have the upgraded speakers and tweeter kit. I would only be changing out the head unit. I want to be able to play MiniDiscs using a portable.

I need to replace the factory stereo with an aftermarket one. I've instaleld them before in cars, and sometimes it's easy as pie, and sometimes it's a hige PITA. Has anyone ever changed out the stereo on one of these new phase II legacies or Outbacks? Should I doi it myself or pay someone?

I just talked to my sales professional at my local dealer, and he informed me that the H6 Outbacks have leather seats. That seals the deal for me, I absolutely hate leather seats. Spring Summer and Fall my back sweats on them. They're very uncomfortable for me. I think I'll take my chances.

Thanks, I've read that thread. Consumer Reports is very interesting in this regard, the 5 year old Lecagy/Outback has excellent marks in everything but "engine", where it has a poor mark (full black circle), due, I assume, to the head gasket issues. I was thinking of going with the lowerst price H6 Outback that I could get as an alternative to the Legacy 35th Anniversary wagon, just to hedge my bet against the 2.5L engine problems. I haven't test driven an automatic H6 Outback yet, only a 5-speed 2.5L one. However, this is what I don't like about the Outback: * SUV-like ride, bumpy, you feel every crack in the pavement thanks to the heavy duty suspension. This is necessary if you go off road on the car, and to be honest if I got it I would do that and I would love it. I like to go backpacking, and some of the National Forest dirt roads are pretty rough. But for my daily 35 mile each way commute to work it's too harsh. I have a sport package Audi A4 right now and one of the main reasons I'm replacing it is to get a more comfortable ride on the highway. * I don't like the Styling. I really think the side molding looks terrible. The "jacked up" look reminds me of an old AMC Eagle. Really ugly to my eyes. I also hate the look of the raised white letter tires. No offense to those who like these features, different strokes as they say. * I don't like how tall it sits. I like to feel the road more, and the handling, roadfeel, and very carlike low-to-the-ground stance of the Legacy wagon is very nice to me. I was very surprised when I test drove them both how much I loved the Legacy and how much I disliked the Outback (though the 5-speed felt great!). * I don't want to buck up for premium fuel. (another thing I don't like about my Audi) And I value gas mileage more than passing power. * I like the ride and very car-like handling in the Legacy a lot, and I really like the dual sunroofs, which would be a lot of extra $$$ on the H6 if they're even available. * I don't like the interior air filter on the H6. I've got that in my Audi and the filters are $200 each and they recommend you change them at 20K miles. I'm trying to cut down on this type of maintenance cost. Also, the difference in price between the H6 Outback and the Legacy 2.5 I'm looking at would pay for two or more head gasket changes. I think this is really the key here. Total Cost of Ownership. If I can expect that there may be problems, I can tackle them right away before head warpage. A few days in the shop and a few dollars later I'm still ahead. Man it would suck to have it fail on a long trip though. Any advice would be appreciated from any of you Subaru regulars. Nobody else makes a car like this. Relatively comfortable, relatively reliable AWD Station Wagon for under $22K.

The H6 is not available on the Legacy in the USA. I am not interested in the Outback. I love AWD, this car will be replacing an Audi quattro. :-\