98sub2500leg

Dave, One comment here on doing the HG while out of the car: I can't imagine doing any of this work while the eng. is in the car. For starters, I'm not sure how someone could do it properly or what someone would ultimately gain especially with the amount of close attention to detail. I say this because I have read dozens upon dozens of failed HG jobs before starting mine. One guy paid 3x to have it done and it fail consecutively. There is too much detail and inspection to be done that would be very difficult at best to do with it in the car. I personally don't believe one could properly do all the necessary work and inspections unless the work was done with the engine being out. Plus I believe It would also be hard on someone with even the best back to be bending over in the car to do it (and also their knuckles).

Thanks for the posts guys. The job is done and I just got this post. Still, all good info. I did end up using mainly the (fine-green) Scotchbrite. Someone else told me before about using 600-800 grit sandpaper. The gasket remover (chemical)was useless. I used a lot of fingernail with the Scothbrite to scrub it off and choke cleaner(xylene). For some strange reason the factory used (believe it or not) #2 phillips machine screws on both the oil pump and the separator(baffle) plate. Apparently, they now have replacement hex machine screws, which is what they originally should have used for this application. One good word for them is that it did hold ok and there was never any leaks after 11 years of driving and 107k miles, but they definitely didn't have service on their mind when they originally designed this.

To remove the rear seal, which has a lot more surface contact,. The seal is also wider than the front. I Talked to a dealer mechanic, they use the seal remover pick tool. Coming in from the front of the seal, you insert the pick into the seal itself not at the shaft or you can damage that area. Rotate the pick to grab the inside edge of the seal then pull straight out. I will re-post the results later. NOTE: This pick tool is used for the rear seal.

Thanks again Dave, I also agree I believe some could use too much, which would lead to excessive squeezeout. I have examined several areas where the factory used Grey for the areas of oil contact, and they had several spots where even they had squeezeout but haven't seen any clogged ports. I believe this could possibly be an issue if one were to lay it on too heavy.

So does this plate get brittle and eventually crack?

I have heard rumors to change this plate if it is plastic. I believe it is also referred to as a baffle plate. I have heard on several occasions that if it is plastic to change it out to the redesigned aluminum. Mine is the original,hardened black plastic. Seems like some phenolic material though-seems stout. Has anyone ever had one of these crack & leak? What is the real scoop on this plate.

The front main seal was relatively easy compared to the rear seal. The pry trick didn't work on this one. I will be definitely be getting the removal tool. This is the original seal. It was still holding and looks like it is in good shape, but I already have it torn down so it's coming out.

It's called Dr. Trannys Assemblee Goo. Got it at Napa.

I am just getting ready to install the machined, cleaned heads back to the block with the new head gaskets. I used gasket remover, xylene(carb cleaner), ect to clean the residue on the block side. It is imbedded into the groves around the cylinders and it is major baked on. I believe this is a combination of solidified coolant, gases, that just won't come off. I have read too many instances of failed head gasket installs even when it was done by the dealer or reputable shop. I believe some of these could be possibly attributed to not properly spending the time to clean. I have spent hours over days trying to get this clean. The baked on carbon in comes off from the pistons. I don't want to compromise the integrity of the mating surfaces. Those grooves around the cylinders are thin and not very deep.

Not sure why anyone would ever suggest that sorry to hear that happened . I haven't got to the rear seal yet. If it doesn't come out as easily as the front I will get the Lisle removal tool.

Shawn, I send you the picture and this is a EJ25 DOHC.

Much apprecaited info. There is about a 3/16" of some type of black foam material on the lower trans. plate and I believe a small 3"-4" section around the rear timing covers. Any idea what they used here?

Dave, Thanks for the suggestion on the ultra grey. Subaru originally used a thin bead of grey high temp gasket material around the pan, which never leaked. I am assuming they used ultra grey or equiv. Not sure why Subaru used red RTV to seal the oil pump. The grey is rated for 625 deg and the red is around 400 deg. Although neither one leaked, there must be a reason. Some believe that using RTV sealants around the pan or oil pump is risky since excess squeezeout material can break off inside and clog ports. Others prefer the anerobics, which seal in the absence of air (basically Loctite). I bought both and believe that either will probably work fine, but I don't want to take chances here especially since the anerobic doesn't have any temperature rating. When you apply this, do you bead it or spread it out after beading it? Is there a precise way to make sure you use just enough to do the job without getting oversqueezing into the pan or oil pump?

Can someone verify the Subaru part #, and/or describe the gasket material's around the metallic gasket. I want to make sure before I use them that I wasn't sold on an older set. The engine is a mid year 98. The original HG's had the black coating that flaked away. This newer type (Subaru part) has a 1/4 " silver gasket coating around each cylinder. It has a dark grey coating around the outside edge and bolt holes. I was told this was the phase 3 latest type, and cars are getting around 100k miles (average)on these. Still seems too early for an acceptable failure rate, but since they are new they haven't been out that long to tell. There are other after market manufacturers and I was told by others that are holding up well, but decided to go with OEM.

Well one thing I left out: I first tried grasping the inside edge of the seal with plyers, vise grips, ect. and pulling it out. The seal pulled apart so I knew that wasn't the answer. I had to use patience and some finesse to pry it up, but it came up very easily. Not a lot of force is needed. I have read posts somewhere that describes drilling into the seal from the front on 2 sides, then installing self tapping machine screws and pulling it out that way. Not realistic at all. The seal is completely molded around metal to keep its rigidity, that is why it is so expensive. There is .21" of a lip from the inside edge of the seal where you could drill into. Not only would it be a risky proposition, but the screws would have to be like a #2 size. It would be very difficult if impossible to find self tappers that small and if you could get them chances are they may pull out anyway. Plus unless you had pump off, drilling into the seal would most lilely leave bits of the seal in the pump-not good.

Well one thing I left out: I first tried grasping the inside edge of the seal with plyers, vise grips, ect. and pulling it out. The seal pulled apart so I knew that wasn't the answer. I had to use patience and some finesse to pry it up, but it came up very easily. Not a lot of force is needed. I have read posts somewhere that describes drilling into the seal from the front on 2 sides, then installing self tapping machine screws and pulling it out that way. Not realistic at all. The seal is completely molded around metal to keep its rigidity, that is why it is so expensive. There is .21" of a lip from the inside edge of the seal where you could drill into. Not only would it be a risky proposition, but the screws would have to be like a #2 size. It would be very difficult if impossible to find self tappers that small and if you could get them chances are they may pull out anyway. Plus unless you had pump off, drilling into the seal would most lilely leave bits of the seal in the pump-not good.

UPDATE: This was actually fairly easy to remove. I used a Wiha (1/8") flat blade on one corner, and using a piece of plastic on the fulcrum to protect the surface), then wedged it up on one end, then the other from the outside of the housing. When reinstalling the new seal, I bought some high temp green goo from Napa (used for seals & "O"rings). As recommended by the dealer, I applied some to the inside of the seal near the spring, and on the outside edges as recommended by the dealer. I used a 1 1/2" piece of plumbing slip fitting as the inserter. I was able to apply hand pressure and it easily drove in with minimal hand force, thanks to the lube-perfect tight seal. I used my calipers and checked around the outside of the top portion of the seal to the pump housing for evenness of seating approx. every 15 deg for uniformity. I almost bought the seal removal tool, but it looked like there was a hook that is inserted down the shaft and was concerned it could scratch the surface ruining the machined surfaces.

I am planning on using the Permatex Ultra grey for the pan gasket. Do you press fit the crank and cam seals in with high temp lube or possibly a thin film of oil? How about the oil pump and pan "O" ring's. On the water pump, I bought the Sub. gasket. Since I am using the gasket, do you normally apply dry or thin coat with lube?

So far got the old seal out with a lot of finesse and no damage(examined surface with a portable microscope). Before reinserting the new seal, does that press in dry or with o ring lube?

Well, I was resigned to going back into town when I decided to give it another try. I didn't realize that the seal comes molded around another piece of metal. The seal wouldn't pull out, nor did I have luck tapping it out from the inside out. I carefully used a small screwdriver to pry it up from one side, then the other. The seal was still holding well after 107k miles, but doubt it would have held for much more than 1-2 more years or up to 30k miles without hardening more then developing cracks and leaking. Still also have the 4 cam seals to change, and without rear access I figure I will still more than likely need a seal remover tool. I will keep this post updated.

Anyone know the safest method for doing this without damaging the surfaces. Is there a special tool to remove it? I have the oil pump off, removed the 5 screws. I thought it would be easier to get to it from the inside, but so far I haven't had any success.

You need to clarify the rocket cover gasket question.l You mean in the corners by the cam caps? If so - the same ultra grey The only tube of stuff you need is ultra-grey. No need for copper spray for the HG's - assuming the heads and engine are fine and you're using Suby gaskets. SHort of that I don't think anything will help you - including copper spray. No special oil for the bolts. Just engine oil (Not even assembly lube). If I need a little lube for Orings - depending on where I use petroleum jelly if in contact with oil/fuel. Generic KY if in contact with water (thermostat Oring). Others will chime in with corrections of their personal favorites. Yes it the corners of the cam caps. The only reason why I mentioned the copper gasket (I believe it is spray) is because I was told by a few Sub mechanics they use it, but that doesn't mean much. The dealer sold me on some red Motorcraft RTV sealant and said it is what they use. I can't find specs on it and would rather not use it unless I know. The Permatex ultra grey I know is good for high temp(625 deg) and high torque high vib. applications. I would never use gasket sealer on the HG's and the like. Not sure on the vasaline though, I was always told not to use it on rubber as it has petrolium in it that dries it out. Apparently, KY is not made of pertroliums and is ok to use, but not sure. Years ago I used a really good high temperature high pressure sealant from Dow but can't remember the pt#. I got the 5 #2 phillips bolts out of the oil pump but having trouble removing the crank seal from the oil pump. It looks like the material is viton. I tried carefully pulling the inside edge of the rubber, but it pulls apart. Prying it out doesn't seem like a good option. Too much chance of gouging the machined surfaces. Suggestions are welcome.

Does anyone know or have any information to the following: What is the manufacturer name, part of the Grey gasket sealant used on the oilpan? For the rocker cover gaskets, Endwrench says to use 3 bond 1215 or equiv.; is this a high temperature grease? It looks like Subaru used RTV to seal the oil pump housing. The dealer only had Motorcraft RTV and said that is what they use on all their repairs, does this sound right. What is copper spray and where is it normally used, if at all. There is some type of high temperature non drying oil that was coated on each cylinder head bolt. Does anyone know what this is and where to get it? Should the oil pump and oil pan "O" rings be greased, if so with what.

Finally got it, used harder tapping pressure from above the pump housing. It was just a tight seal.

Well, I tried both prying it very carefully, then using a piece of wood with a hammer to tap it out from different side angles, but it won't budge. I believe the front oil seal is keeping it locked in. I would not replace the front seal since it is in good condition and has no leaks , but I already unbolted the oil pan which can't be removed because the oil pump housing is in the way. A Haynes manual says to remove the front seal, use a seal removal tool or screwdriver. A screwdriver seems like a bad method for getting it out (too much that can go wrong). It also says you can carefully drill 2 holes and install 2 self tapping screws into the seal then pull it out. I can't see that would work either. With as sealed as it currently is around the crankshaft it seems that the self tappers would easily pull out, besides the fact that there isn't that much depth to drill into the seal for the screws anyways.