98sub2500leg

If I didn't have to remove the heads I more than likely would have not cared so much. Before tackling the job, I spend about 2 weeks going over all the internet posts and reada lot of posts on head gasket failures after the HG job was just completed. The range of failures was between 0-30k miles, with it seemed an average of 7000-8000m before secondary failure. There is a guy who was desperate who said he paid up 3x to have it re done and it failed again after the 3rd time. I would personally trust a strain gauge(which is what is used for the electronic scaling inside the snap on) than a mechanical method on those head bolts which have an offset torque. the snap on can get it to the foot pound. Don't get me wrong, the mechanical can be just as effective , I like to be as dead nuts accurate as possible, especially after how much I already have $$ in the parts.

Maybe I just had bad luck on getting 2 bad wrenches. The beam type to me are ok for inch-lb applications, I can seem to dial the needle in pretty well without it moving around when your trying to get a reading. Mainly, I am only concerned about getting the right torque on the head bolts. It was worth the $$ to make sure it was right especially after how much I have into this job.

I am just posting this for honest personal feedback. I am sealing my HG's on my 98 Sub 2.5L DOHC. I would have had this done by now if it wasn't for all the monkeying around with different torque wrenches. I bought 4 total. A cheaper 3/8" drive 10-150 ft-lb clicker dial type(worthless-didn't work at all). I also bought a Craftsman 1/2" digitork 25-250 ft lbs. (again no good, didn't work at all and I returned it). I also bought a beam type (3/8"- scale is inch lbs). I believe small scale beam(scale) types are fairly reliable. With all the internet reviews, I bucked up & bought a Snap on digital scale with beep & vibration-Very quick, no monkeying around, and dead nuts accurate. If I had known how well & quick this speeds things up, I would have bought it a long time ago. I lost a lot of time making several trips into town.

I can use some help on a few issues pertaining to cam installation: Ref: 98 EJ25, DOHC, I am getting ready to re-install the cams. I seem to be missing my notes on the re-positioning of the right cams. I found my notes on the right side, I can't find them on the left. For example, with crank key at 6:00 position, what is the left side Intake & exhaust cam lobe positions? Also, on the cam bearing caps, the manual says to use cam lube. I am assuming in the small oil ports on the cam bearing caps. Does everyone use cam lube or just a very thin layer of motor oil. Problem I see with the motor oil is possibly running down and contaminating the sealer before you can get a good seal with the lube(I am referring to the metal -metal faces on the bearing caps near the bolt holes that contact the cylinder heads). I am using the seal lube for the actual seal unless I hear otherwise. It also says to use cam lube in the lifters, although I am not sure why I couldn't just coat with oil. The cam measurements are right on(bearing & journal diam). I labeled & bagged each bolt position, bearing cap position, and lifter position. I was planning on re-installing all of them in the same positions. Not sure if adjustment is necessary (or shims, or how to do it-re-shim). Any other info would be helpful. Thanks

Can I verify is that for an EJ25?

I have read through past threads and there seems to be several threads on the Cylinder head bolt tightening/torquing procedure. Before starting this job I would appreciate as much feedback as I can get, but only relating to the EJ25. If your not sure, don't post. I have a phase 1 EJ25; year 98; DOHC. I believe both the Chiltons/Haynes manuals are incorrect in step 4 which states loosen them an additional 180 deg (this the the prior step 3 which also states to loosen them 180 deg (that would be 360 deg total), which wouldn't make any sense. The replacement gasket is the Subaru OEM gasket set (3rd generation gaskets). Again, I am looking for the latest instructions. If you do post, please help me and other readers by posting the literature source, and date. Thanks:confused:

Well, this is the deal. Bought the car new, it had warrenty issues at 24k miles. The dealer said they had a mismatched set of gears in the tranny and while they were doing the job, they changed the clutch & flywheel. That clutch lasted until 98K+ miles, which is when I had the last one done. That is 74k miles on the last clutch. I dive it consistently the same. I now has 107k miles on it, which is 9k miles on the newer clutch. The manual says if there is less than 1/16" to the rivets, change it out. So apparently the spec. is .062" to the rivets, and I measured .052". On this overhaul I decided to change nearly seals everywhere except on the rear main which I figure it might be worth taking it into the dealer to have done. I asked the parts guy about the clutch, he said if you get a new clutch disc, Subaru specs you buy the plate. Any past clutch job I have done I have always bought the disc, plate & bearing together and had the flywheel surfaced. In this case, I asked if I could just get a new disc and possibly the bearing then reuse the plate. The flywheel was just resurfaced. The mechanic who did the work bought the parts from Napa (not OEM). Not that that makes a difference, but I prefer OEM as you should have more assurance the parts are to exact spec. (I say should be). He said there was a bulletin that Subaru recommended that the flywheel not be resurfaced due to clutch chatter problems. From reading a ton of posts, it is my belief that those problems are most likely caused from leaky seals. Heck there is the tranny front seal, the crank rear main, the pressure plate, and the small 2 screw baffle plate. One guy had a complete HG job done after finding major leaks, got the car back after the service and paid many $$$ to find all 4 tires locked up shortly after getting it back. Had it towed back to the dealer who then said his tranny was dry (no oil). It was apparently the front tranny seal. Since I didn't know the spec. thickness of the disc-rivets when new and Subaru doesn't list it, I decided to be safe and redo it all again. Too late now already bought the parts. By the way, the new disc measures .063" from the higher rivets which means I have used .010" of material which equates to just over 9k+ miles. That would mean I should have close to 62K miles left on the old clutch (62K miles + 9k Miles= 71k miles for the clutch disc I just pulled out-just about calculates out right within a few thousand miles which are in the wash).

Yeah, I didn't mention it before, but my concern is the drivers side cams springing back. Once you have them into position, they stay in position, but seems that when that tensionor pin is removed the small amount of shock can make make the cams jump position. Had that happen on removal of the belt. Thanks for the post, it will help.

Excellent, that is more in line what kind of clamp force would be needed to do the job. Not to say the talked about large paper type clamps wouldn't work, I just can't see it would have enough clamping force.:banana:

I am the original owner so I know these haven't been touched since I bought the car. This brings up the issue of torque wrenches, which I know has been beat to death. I bought a cheapie clutch type which failed to work on the water pump. I bought a Craftsman 1/2" digitork 25-250 ft lbs. mainly for the head bolts. I still need another for inch lbs. I know the Snap on are better, not sure on pricing. This is a tool I won't use all that often. I'm thinking the beam type should be ok for in-lbs. Thanks again for the help.

Good feedback here guys, thanks. I can't help wonder: if the correct torque was used and the bolts broke,it maybe possible that the temper changed over time from the heat? I am wondering if I should be replace all of them to be safe? On the FSM, there is a site with a free download, same as Ron showed. However it claims to be the factory service manual. It looks convincing and probably is, but can't be too sure since I have not seen the actual FSM. The data so far is accurate. The page #'s seem to skip, but I believe the webmaster must had intentionally edited them on purpose. I read that the FSM(book) is hard to read and you need to skip sections to get all the info on what your working on. I have a (May)98 Sub Outback 2.5L DOHC, MT but they only list manuals for 97 & 99 so I am in between. I downloaded the 99 manual(haven't checked the 99, vs 97 yet-good size download). Dave, this is where I got it from: http://www.onlinefreeebooks.net/automotive-machinery-power-equipment-ebooks/subaru/ My problem is verifying info, I have 3 different manuals with some conflicting info. Some posts show different torque ratings.

I would prefer to get it right the first time. I am wondering how to get it to not skip a tooth on the belt when it is all lined up and the tensionor is released. The guy at the dealer said use the large black bundle paper clips. It just seems that there would be too much force on it. On the other hand, I know the tensionor has a really slow release. I bought the cheap plastic cam lock tool at Napa. I may return it because it was $ around $58,is made of cheap plastic, and I will be lucky if I get more than one use out of it. No other parts stores had one. I do have some cold rolled steel & thought of cutting a small piece off, then drilling 2 holes to lock the cams. I saw a similar design on a post. The Cobb tool looks like the most promising, but can't find it locally, and can't wait that long for shipping.

FYI: Engine: EJ25, DOHC, phase 1, year 98 Sorry to have to get on this subject again, I know there is a ton of info, have not read this issue yet. I have the well documented Endwrench procedure, Sub. procedure, Haynes & Chiltons. I have had conflicting info on if it is entirely necessary to use the cam lock tool. There is some tool from Cobb, not sure if it is necessary. I am well understood on reinstalling the belt, tooth locations, cam locations , ect..., however I am concerned when I get the belt installed and release the tensioner pin that the cams might snap. It sounds like the tensioner has a very slow release. This is my 1st timing belt as you can tell.

I did replace the separator plate, I couldn't remove the 2 phillips screws for the access plate. I know this was worthless, but I used a thin layer of ultragrey around that plate. This one is already a metallic plate, and the seal is holding fine. I have heard though that these fail as well. Any input on range of mileage failure would be very helpful since I still have access to try to replace it. The consensus is to leave the rear main alone since I only have 108K miles on it. Since I am changing most all seals, hoses and orings I thought of possibly hauling it to the dealer to change it out, couldn't be that much for labor since I have the part.

I do have the new plate and they did me the new screws for the separator plate. I just couldn't get the small 2 screw access plate off, so decided to leave that and the rear seal to heed advice. I would have bought the white plastic. As I was already leaning towards using UHMW(plastic), but didn't have any. I had already bought some green 3m Scotchbrite and 800 grit sandpaper, but reluctant to use the sandpaper so I cleaned the areas as well as I could hand scrub with carb cleaner and the residual areas with a the Scotchbrite. I also went light & easy on those areas. Thanks for the responses.

Engine: EJ25, DOHC, year: Aug 98; Phase1 (non turbo charged) I need exact info here pertaining to a EJ25 phase 1 for the year above regarding the tightening sequence for the cam bearing caps. Are all EJ25's tightened in the same sequence?

I know there is a lot of info here on clutches, but haven't found all this yet. What is the real scoop on how much disc material should there be for re-use of the clutch disc to the higher rivets on the disc? I read to replace the disc if the measured disc material to the higher level of rivets measures .062". Mine measures .052". I just paid to have the clutch done 8k mile ago. The guy who did it got parts from Napa (not OEM). The 1st clutch lasted 78miles. I usually get well over 100k on clutches. I will onlly buy OEM parts. In clutches I have done myself in the past I have always changed the disc, and pressure plate and re-surface the flywheel. The dealer says that Subaru recommends in a service bulletin to replace the flywheel as well as you can get clutch chatter. They do not recommend resurfacing, not sure what to think. I would tend to believe after reading other threads/posts that chatter comes from oil leaking onto the flywheel and disc. (either a rear main or front trans seal). A new clutch disc measures .072", which should give me (approx) 52,000 left assuming I got the same mileage as the old one. The last guy who I paid to have it done resurfaced the flywheel if I remember right and it has worked fine. I thought the dealer said the parts they supply go together as a set with flywheel.

Just commenting on my personal ownership experience only on a 98 Outback EJ25 DOHC. Bought the car new in Aug 98, drove well until the 60k mile service, which included a coolant flush. Took it into the dealer, got it back then smelled coolant. I always kept the engine clean and never could find out where it came from and simply was working too long hours for months at a time to really spend the time to dig in-no trace of coolant on the ground or around the engine though. The coolant levels were always normal. After approx 2 months of this, it finally overheated one day. I pulled over when the gauge was at 3/4 full scale and had the car towed to the dealer. They called me with their script, "well theres good news & bad", good news is you were low on coolant, bad news is I needed a a HG change or I would risk blowing the engine" (a cool $2300). I took it to a reputable mechanic who tested for hydrocarbons , cylinder pressure and I believe vacuum. He ran it for 45 min. and tested it and found 5ppm trace of hrdrocarbons. He said I should just drive it and watch it. I did what he said, and the car would rarely (few times/year) overheat to 3/4 scale. I would turn off the engine and the temp would go back to normal. After 6 more years of this it finally got worse. I believe (and this is only my opinion), that the dealer most likely got a air bubble trapped in the coolant system when refilling. In all fairness to the dealer, it is possible that the head gaskets just failed at 60k miles. Keeping in mind I was always easy on the engine. I am re-doing just about everything in hopes I will get at least another 100k miles. Bought all OEM parts from the dealer, which I know I probably overpaid(big $$), but at least I can assured they will meet specs. The car is a keeper, always ran great, has good acceleration even with blown HG's-stable RPM at idle. At 107k miles, seems to run as good as when I bought it. It is broken down now , had the heads tested very slight warpage on the edges, compression tested good. If this all goes well, plan on picking up another (probably a phase 2 or possibly even a phase 3). I need the AWD to get around in the winter on the hills. Other than HG's, great car.

For the oil pump prep before install, I was planning on refilling the 2 bottom ports with oil.

Yes, thanks-my bad.

I thought the dealer told me this thin metallic gasket goes on dry, but the Haynes and Chiltons manuals show using sealer. The old water pump gasket was similar to the type of metallic head gaskets (metallic gasket sprayed with some black coating). The replacement gasket I am referring to is the same, just not sure if sealer is used due to conflicting info. Couldn't find this issue in any search. Doesn't seem to be any evidence of any clear lube used on the old one, definitely no RTV was used. I believe these go on dry if I recall. Any takers? FYI: 98 EJ25 engine; DOHC

This is an 98 Outback Legacy EJ25 DOHC: I lost the positioning of the pumps 2 internal rotor positions relative to the housing. There is one alignment mark on top of each rotor. Those marks each seem to line up at the bottom 6:00 position of the pump in line with each other. The internal flats on the smaller rotor are at the 3:00 and 9:00 position and the pump lines right up to the flats on the crankshaft during a test fit. Can someone verify this?

Ok, here is the latest update: Dave, the screws are all phillips. When I removed most had to use a lot of hand torque. This dug into some of the screw heads so I am concerned when I go to reinstall they won't grab as well and I won't be able to re-torque to spec. Subaru says they replaced all of the phillips head screws with hex head, which is what I would have expected them to have used in the first place with them being on there that tight. I have been very reluctant to touch the rear seal. On this car with 107k miles there have been so leaks yet, however every part has it's limit. The train of thought is that since I have the engine out, to change out what I can that can go bad. I tried getting info from the dealer for what range of mileage they see those rear seals going bad are. The answer was by one mechanic that there is no definite mileage where they go bad (I was looking for a range). The same guy also said they see more separator or baffle plates going bad and the piston pin plug(small plate). Another mechanic said they are easy to replace and they never see any come back after they have been changed. I was told the preferred method for removal is to use the pick tool and dig in the seal in the center of the exposed outer edge then rotate the pick and pull out. I was told they come right out, but I haven't done one yet so I can't be sure. I still want to re-analyze the seal and pick to make sure I will be able to do it right. I am confident I can get the new on seated well. Personally I believe it may be possible that failures can be from not using OEM and possibly the tolorance not being as tight. It has to be manufactured very tight(no room for wide tolorances). Also, contamination can cause failure. Other failures can possibly be from caused from seating issues. After examining the front seal. It first looked like it was seated ok, but it actually was off roundness. That is where I used the calipers to check uniformity. I had to fine tune it roughly every 10-15 degrees around the seal until I reached the desired result. Have you had any go bad after installing them? I am still reluctant on changing it and may end up leaving it alone.

Apparently, the word is that they warp, then leak. I am resigned to replace. The dealer says they redesigned the plastic baffles with stainless. They also replaced any phillips head machine screws with hex head machine screws. The dealer said they see more piston pin seal replacements and baffle or separator plate leaks than rear engine seals. They gave no indication on rear seal milage failure.

I was already thinking that, but the seal will will only last so long before it needs replacing. I'm not sure what the MTBF (mean time between failure) is on that seal. Sounds like you have had bad experience with resealing on this particular seal. Thanks for the tip on the position (I am assuming your referring to the marks on the seal). I can see that unless one were to precisely measure, the roundness and seating around the top edge after it has been seated there could be problems. The eyeball test for me looked like it was dead nuts seated, but after using my calipers to check roundness, I found it was not properly seated and fixed it. Even a small amount of improper seating would quickly shorten the life of the seal and leak.