drdisco69 Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I recently got a 2002 Legacy GT with 159k miles, it's in very good shape but does have one small problem. The clutch slips like crazy. It behaves when cold but as soon as it gets warm the fun ends. I thought it may be due to abuse, but I got under the car and found oil dripping from the back of the engine and the trans. It looks like the rear main seal has puked all over the clutch, which would explain the smell and the smoke. I just found a thread on here that suggested it may be the input shaft seal for the transmission as well. I guess I'll have both on hand when I go in to do the job. I'm not thrilled by the prospect of replacing the clutch, but I know it will be a great car for a long time once this gets ironed out. Obviously as long as I'm in there I'd like to replace everything, flywheel included in case there is any heat damage. I'm not making a race car out of it, I already have one of those. I just want a reliable daily driver so OEM-ish parts are what I'm leaning towards. My question is should I stay with the factory style dual mass flywheel, or swap to a single mass from another car? Apparently Subaru uses the Lego system to build their cars, so other model flywheels will fit. I assume the clutches are different between the different flywheel types, so I have to have that figured out before I can order a clutch kit. Thanks to everyone for your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Just order an Exedy OE style clutch kit and have a local machine shop resurface the flywheel. Oil from the back of the engine is usually a sign of a failed Separator plate seal. Very common on all EJ series engines, and is easily repairable when the engine is out for a clutch replacement. Check out Beergarage.com. He has pics of the separator plate as well as clutch replacement. While the engine is out, if you do not have documentation of when the timing belt and ALL of the associated idler pulleys were last replaced, you MUST do that as well. Bent valves and a big repair bill await if you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdisco69 Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 Oh awesome, more stuff that leaks! Thanks for that heads up, I'll have one of those ready to install as well. I was planning on getting the Exedy OEM clutch, but seemed to come up short on a flywheel for the GT that didn't cost a fortune. That's when I thought about using other model flywheels that might be cheaper. I have records of the timing belt and head gaskets done at 90k, so I'm ok there. The valve covers are bone dry as well. You say "when then engine is out" like that was assumed to be part of the plan. What's wrong with just pulling the trans to get to all this stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Thats an odd mileage for a timing belt. Check to see if all the seals and idlers were done too, if not guess what else you are doing. You win need two NEW throwout bearing clips from subaru. Do not mess with the rear main seal, they almost never leak and it is always the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Most people pull the engine, and it is easier to do it that way, so I assumed, but you know what they say about that. Head gaskets and timing stuff already done is good. That much less to worry about. I don't know why the after market hasn't picked up the 2.5 flywheel. I guess the 2.0 is the more common engine for power mods, but with so many 2.5s out there you'd think there would be more support for it. As for using other flywheels, might be doable, but I personally can't say one way or the other. Weight and dimensions may be slightly different, but it's hard to say because info about the 2.5 flywheel is a bit scarce. Not to mention, most of the time it's only $40-50 to get a flywheel resurfaced, compared to upwards of $100 for a new one, or $200+ for a Subaru part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySchmitty Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I've done it the tranny-way three times on my old 1st gens. It's not BAD, but it probably is a lot easier to just pull the engine instead with an engine hoist. Otherwise you have three shafts to remove and the tranny is a real pig to manuver. I'm not sure, but I bet the motor is lighter too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdisco69 Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 Thanks for the advice, this is the kind of stuff I like to hear. Pointing out the cost of a replacement flywheel versus resurfacing the current one makes it a no brainer. I'll leave the rear main alone and do the plate. I didn't even know about the plate or those clips until I read a few threads on this board. Everywhere else they seen to be more concerned with dumping the clutch at 5000 rpm... I will be doing the job on a lift with air jacks, so I don't think it will be easier to pull the engine in this case. Three shafts versus all the motor junk? The timing belt was done early because it was done the same time the head gaskets were. It looks like they did all the seals on the front of the engine, I don't see the idler pulley listed though. The rest of the motor is bone dry except for the rear, so that's a bit of hope! Thanks again for the help, anything else is always appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I will be doing the job on a lift with air jacks, so I don't think it will be easier to pull the engine in this case. Three shafts versus all the motor junk? Oh, well you got it made then! You can drop the exhaust as a whole assembly, and you'll only need to replace the manifold gaskets. Assuming it doesn't fall apart at least. Since the trans will be out, inspect the input shaft seal for leaks. Not sure about the newer transmissions but the old ones you have to split the trans case to replace the seal. That is another seemingly common source of oil in the bell housing area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySchmitty Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Yup, the two half shafts and the shaft to the rear. The trans in my 90-94 Legos had short splined shafts coming out of the sides of the transmission, with a hole through it for a roll pin that would go through the entire CV assembly. Get a long, thin punch and they should knock right out. The wheel side is standard CV stuff, big nut retaining a splined shaft. IIRC I got good enough to where I could just pull the assembly out of the wheel without having to detach the bottom of the hub from the ball joint to get enough clearance, saved some time. For the rear shaft, I dropped the middle support bearing ( couple of bolts) and it should just pull right out of the back of the tranny. Have a pan ready as the shaft provides the oil seal and the tranny will leak. After all that it's pretty much just like any other trans job. If you can get your hands on a tranny lift it might make it easier for you too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdisco69 Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 You can drop the exhaust as a whole assembly, and you'll only need to replace the manifold gaskets. Assuming it doesn't fall apart at least. Doh! I knew I was forgetting to order something! I have a pile of stuff on the way, but I will get a pair of exhaust gaskets as well. I was originally going to do the input shaft seal in the trans, then decided it was most likely just the oil separator (quite an ironic name actually ). Do you think I should do the input seal while I'm in there? It's not exactly a walk in the park to get to it, but I'll be closer than any other time. I've found a few walk-throughs online of the various things I'll be getting into, and I have the service manual as well. I'm well versed in the world of Hondas and wanted to learn about all the pitfalls of this one before I pulled everything to bits. I'm going to drain the trans fluid first, as I'm sure it won't mind being changed anyway. But everything looks pretty straight forward, just a combination of FWD and RWD procedures all rolled into one. I just can't wait to get it all straightened out so I can start loving my new car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Do you think I should do the input seal while I'm in there? It's not exactly a walk in the park to get to it, but I'll be closer than any other time. Sure, if you're up to it. If you've had a transmission apart before it's a walk in the park. Plus theres a writeup here: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=90182 IIRC I got good enough to where I could just pull the assembly out of the wheel without having to detach the bottom of the hub from the ball joint to get enough clearance, saved some time. I didn't separate any of that stuff on mine. Just slid the joints off the stubs as the trans was being lowered. I don't know if the newer transmissions have the stubs or not, but if don'e right you still shouldn't have to mess with any of the ball joints or anything at the wheel end of the axles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdisco69 Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 Sure, if you're up to it. If you've had a transmission apart before it's a walk in the park. Plus theres a writeup here: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=90182 Yeah, I found that thread, and the other one that talked about not taking the axles out of the hubs. Anyway, I think the car just answered my question about taking apart the trans. Leaving work today I gave a listen and heard a tiny bit of noise coming from the input shaft bearing. It goes away when the clutch is in, and starts up as soon as it's out. This is turning out to be more fun than I ever imagined... Thanks again for your help! If you're ever down this way I owe you a beer or three! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 Leaving work today I gave a listen and heard a tiny bit of noise coming from the input shaft bearing. It goes away when the clutch is in, and starts up as soon as it's out. This is turning out to be more fun than I ever imagined... Could it be noise from an unloaded TOB? They can make some whirring sounds when they wear out. If the noise is constant regardless of pedal pressure (until the clutch is completely disengaged) then it probably is main shaft bearing noise. I've had noise from the transmission main shaft in my car since I bought it. When I had the trans part I couldn't find any noticeable play in the main shaft roller bearing, or any of the countershaft bearings. Only a small amount of wear in the front taper bearing, which I replaced, but it didn't change anything. Have driven almost 17k miles with it making the same noise, and can't tell that it has changed any. That or I've gotten used to it and it just doesn't seem any worse yet. IIRC the mainshaft roller bearing was like $45 from Subaru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdisco69 Posted December 22, 2010 Author Share Posted December 22, 2010 That's a thought, I'll double check the behavior of the noise. I think it wasn't pedal pressure dependent, but I'll check it in a bit. The CRX that this car replaced had an unbelievable input shaft bearing noise. I figured just let it ride until it didn't ride anymore and I would replace it when I needed to (or just throw a new trans in it). It was bad when I got it, and I put over 50k miles on that car, including many on the track, and nothing seemed to phase it. Turns out the input shaft was the least of its worries when a Suburban turned left in front of me a month ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySchmitty Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 I just can't wait to get it all straightened out so I can start loving my new car! I still loved mine, even after three tranny pulls. When they're good, they are REALLY good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdisco69 Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Update: Clutch slip fixed. I did the clutch and seals December 30th and all is well. It took 9 hours and was about what I was expecting. When I drained the trans only about a quart of fluid came out. Most of it had made its way into the bell housing. The rear main seal was also leaking. The clutch was soaked in trans fluid and worn as well. And this might be part of the bearing noise I was hearing... Popping open the trans case: There's yer problem right there! Clean and ready to reassemble And after everything was back together, one washer was left over... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 A little RTV will fix that input seal right up. :-p Only a quart of fluid in the trans? Might explain the noise huh? If you had only one washer left over you did pretty good. I think I had 5 or 6 and a handful of wire clips and random brackets after I got done with mine. About 6 months later I found a ground wire that I had broken and never noticed. Glad to hear you got it fixed. Guessing that the noise is sorta mostly gone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdisco69 Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Yeah, the noise is sorta all gone... And it shifts way smoother too, what a surprise! By filling the trans to the recommended level I have now discovered that the axle seals leak. I didn't know that before because they were only sealing air. :-\ Thanks again for your help, and the threads on this board to give me an idea of what I was getting into. I have a gift to give back, a fully compiled and bookmarked 2002 Legacy service manual. Where shall I place such a gift so that it can be enjoyed by the maximum number of people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goobysoobs Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Yeah you did good with just a washer left over just finished mine and I have a bolt and an accessory belt left over . My pilot bearing was out too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Yeah, the noise is sorta all gone... And it shifts way smoother too, what a surprise! By filling the trans to the recommended level I have now discovered that the axle seals leak. I didn't know that before because they were only sealing air. :-\ Thanks again for your help, and the threads on this board to give me an idea of what I was getting into. I have a gift to give back, a fully compiled and bookmarked 2002 Legacy service manual. Where shall I place such a gift so that it can be enjoyed by the maximum number of people? You can post links in this thread! I'd like to get a copy of that downloaded to go along with the rest of the FSMs I have. My axle seals leak as well. Have been meaning to replace them but the leak is very slow. I think I may have damaged the right one when I had the transmission apart since it leaks more than the left one. Those are a bit tricky to replace since the rings they are mounted in set the preload on the differential bearings, as well as adjust backlash for the ring gear. Edited January 9, 2011 by Fairtax4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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