heartless Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 ok I have searched, and searched with various terms, and am not finding anything definitive for this issue....most results have the problem when cold and/or are in the older gen section... 1990 Legacy, EJ22, 4EAT - AWD, 218K on the clock. initial cold start - kind of rough - takes it moment to bring the idle up to normal "warm up" mode, but one there it idles fine. After driving a bit - it is a minimum of 10 miles to anything for me - and the car is fully warmed up - pull in somewhere and put trans in park, the idle starts surging up, down, up, down - almost stalling at the low point, over 1200 at the high point. this has been going on for some time now - started during the late summer months, and getting worse as the temps get colder. actually starting to do it a little while waiting at a light, trans in gear, brakes on. actually had a guy ask the other night if I was even gonna make it to where i was going, he was very concerned - had stopped at a quik mart & left it "running" while I ran inside... short history - knock sensor replaced about 2 years ago, perhaps a little longer O2 sensor replaced last year engine was pulled, resealed and timing belts, etc*, replaced this past summer (thanks again to Miles, Tom & Kara for the help!) MAF changed out this past summer as well (used) * the 'etc' includes new idler pulleys, seals, water pump, and other associated necessities I cant afford to just start throwing parts at this thing - unemployed for more than 2 years now, and no UI bennies for the past several months = very broke I do have access to a couple of parts cars however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I would try the engine temp sensor. I suppose you can measure it with an ohm meter and a pot of got water. this sensor is coing to contro input to the IAC. and with your car acting up with the colder weather, perhaps the car thinks it's warmer out. Just an idea, considering the age and miles of the car, and the sensor being the original. I know you have changed your maf, but the symptoms could have been related to this the whole time. my car has started to do similar things. lately, it has been holding the idle up that i have to sntnd on the brake at a stop. Then it starts fluctuating, and if i put in neutral, feather the trottle, i can get it to settle down. It hasnt wanted to stall, but from a warm start soon after, sometimes it wont catch on the first crank, then fire, almost stall, shoot up in rpm, and settle on a good idle. at 101,000 mi on mine i am anticipating changing the temp sensor along with cleaning the IAC and a coolant flush as PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 thanks for the input Miles. coolant is going to get flushed twice this year - still havent put that new radiator in. so I am sure that THAT part of the system will be good LOL will have to look into getting a CTS for it - this would be the one on the block, right? just behind the power steering pump, kind of buried back there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessekrs123 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) thanks for the input Miles. coolant is going to get flushed twice this year - still havent put that new radiator in. so I am sure that THAT part of the system will be good LOL will have to look into getting a CTS for it - this would be the one on the block, right? just behind the power steering pump, kind of buried back there? Yes, it is on the rear of the coolant crossover pipe, passenger side. It will be the brown 2 wire connector to the right of the spade connector which is for the temp gauge in your cluster. Blue connector is for the purge solenoid. Part # is 22630AA041 and I got it for invoice, $22. List price is $39.95 from the dealer, see if they can cut you some slack. If you want to test your old one out, I have measured out resistances at certain temperatures. Don't go by the Hayne's book, their readings are 100% wrong. Edited December 11, 2011 by Jessekrs123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 Yes, it is on the rear of the coolant crossover pipe, passenger side. It will be the brown 2 wire connector to the right of the spade connector which is for the temp gauge in your cluster. Blue connector is for the purge solenoid. Part # is 22630AA041 and I got it for invoice, $22. List price is $39.95 from the dealer, see if they can cut you some slack. If you want to test your old one out, I have measured out resistances at certain temperatures. Don't go by the Hayne's book, their readings are 100% wrong. Would appreciate any numbers you can share - and besides, might help someone else down the line as well.. dont have a Haynes for this car - but DO have an FSM - guess i have just been to busy/lazy to look it up two wire, brown connector - so it would look like this? \/ http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-Beck-Arnley_26977880-P_290_R|GRPSENSAMS_____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessekrs123 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Would appreciate any numbers you can share - and besides, might help someone else down the line as well.. dont have a Haynes for this car - but DO have an FSM - guess i have just been to busy/lazy to look it up two wire, brown connector - so it would look like this? \/ http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-Beck-Arnley_26977880-P_290_R|GRPSENSAMS_____ That is exactly what it looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogbone Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Had the exact same problem with my son's '91 Legacy when we first bought it. After initial warm up, idle oscillated from around 1300 down to almost (and occasionally) stalling. We pulled the Idle Air Control Valve (IACV), cleaned it up, and reinstalled. The spring loaded plunger was gummy from old gas/varnish/crud. Wagon idles perfectly now. Check out your IACV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 well, changed the CTS yesterday - boy was that a fun exercise... anyway, no joy - still wants to surge at idle when warm....guess i need to move to the IAC next - did pick up a can of Seafoam while at the parts store yesterday... so, I have done the Seafoam thing with an EA82 before...but not on an EJ - where exactly do i need to be using the stuff to clean the IAC??? have heard of people using the brake booster vacuum tube, but that doesnt get to the IAC very well - or does it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 Had the exact same problem with my son's '91 Legacy when we first bought it. After initial warm up, idle oscillated from around 1300 down to almost (and occasionally) stalling. We pulled the Idle Air Control Valve (IACV), cleaned it up, and reinstalled. The spring loaded plunger was gummy from old gas/varnish/crud. Wagon idles perfectly now. Check out your IACV. ok, so how much of a PITA is it too get off? and do I need to replace the gasket for it? and gods honest truth - where the heck is it on an EJ?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 It is located ont he side of the throttle body, big grey lump looking thing with a rectangle base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogbone Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 well, changed the CTS yesterday - boy was that a fun exercise... anyway, no joy - still wants to surge at idle when warm....guess i need to move to the IAC next - did pick up a can of Seafoam while at the parts store yesterday... so, I have done the Seafoam thing with an EA82 before...but not on an EJ - where exactly do i need to be using the stuff to clean the IAC??? have heard of people using the brake booster vacuum tube, but that doesnt get to the IAC very well - or does it??? I did the seafoam IAC clean "in place" initially. It did help, but it did not cure it. I pulled the line feeding the base of the IAC and filled it with seafoam. It took about 20 minutes of driving before it stopped the James Bond white smokescreen impersonation. Talk about attention grabbing. Again, I ended up just pulling the lines, taking out the screws, and cleaning the IAC by hand. Yes, it would be appropriate to have a new gasket. No, I did not have a new gasket, I was just gentle when I pulled it off and reused the old one. A word of warning. I do not recommend taking apart the spring loaded mechanism on the side. Nothing in there to clean, and talk about a PITA to get lined back up, hook up the spring, and reinstall the cover. Imagine reattaching a pocket watch mainspring while wearing a blindfold, and you'll get the idea. Just clean out the plunger and diaphragm assembly enough to get it freely moving, and call it good. :cool: Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogbone Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Good pictures on this thread that may help: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=98281 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 Ooooo - pretty pictures! Thank you for that link Dogbone!! so if i am reading all that right - the IAC is right above and ever so slightly behind the CTS i changed yesterday? oh joy... hmmm, maybe i will go yank one off of a parts car, clean it up good, make a new gasket - i have gasket material - and then tackle taking mine off... need to be checking the vacuum lines while I am in there too...pushin 220K i am sure they are due... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95legwagon Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 i have an extra one off a 95 legacy wagon 2.2 if its the same you can have it.....you pay shipping n its yours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 i have an extra one off a 95 legacy wagon 2.2 if its the same you can have it.....you pay shipping n its yours I appreciate the offer, but I have 3 parts cars sitting here - at least two of them have decent IAC valves - the third may be a little iffy tho... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95legwagon Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 ok cool if you do decide you want it just pm me (in case for some unknown reason they all dont work) (1 in a million chance lmao) but anyways good luck! -jarrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 :headbang:thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eulogious Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 My 1990 does the same thing, has since the day I bought it. I tested my CTS and it was fine, but I have yet to replace or clean my IAC. It really only bugs me when the AC kicks in. It will almost stall out the car. But it hasn't actually stalled yet, so meh. I really need to clean out the IAC... If this works for you, I might just have to finally do it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 My 1990 does the same thing, has since the day I bought it. I tested my CTS and it was fine, but I have yet to replace or clean my IAC. It really only bugs me when the AC kicks in. It will almost stall out the car. But it hasn't actually stalled yet, so meh. I really need to clean out the IAC... If this works for you, I might just have to finally do it... will definitely post an update when i do get it done - would really like at least a little bit warmer weather tho - sub 20* temps are just not fun for doing things outside. Supposed to be back in the mid 30's again tomorrow...we shall see. the CTS i figured couldnt hurt - it was only $26 and change after all, and the car does have darn near 220K on the clock, so yeah, it was probably due for a change... the one parts car we have only has 166K on the clock - we picked it up in Illinois & drove it home - am probably going to pull the IAC valve off that one - give it a cleaning, and then swap them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 well, IACV is off of the parts car, taken apart & cleaned - currently drip-drying in the garage. even managed to salvage the gasket - just in case. and I know others have commented about there only being 3 bolts? well, this one had all 4! and what a pain to get to them all! thank goodness for wobble extensions!! LOL Dang it is cold out there!! my poor fingers are numb! Tomorrow is supposed to be somewhat warmer - will see about tackling my car then. Need to go thaw out for a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 and I know others have commented about there only being 3 bolts? well, this one had all 4! Oops! That would be me. Sorry. I remember the situation now. Haynes' instructions, in their infinite thoroughness, said "Remove the mounting bolts (see illustration)." And of course the drawing showed just 3 bolts. Eventually my fingers found that there was, lo and behold, a well-hidden 4th bolt! Anyway, good going. Hope it solves the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 me too, Olnick - Me too!! nice thing on the parts car - didnt have to worry so much about the various hoses - they were so brittle from sitting the really awkward ones broke off! like the PCV hose & the little fella that just makes a U from the intake down to another fitting...SA-nap! and it was gone... oops that one is a vacuum hose, right? hope so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 ok - IAC valve got changed today, along with a new PCV, new little vacuum lines, new radiator and a long overdue oil change... the verdict - WAY better than it was - but still not 100% cured of the wandering idle. after driving the 28 miles home from where the work was performed, pulled in the drive, & parked in my usual spot - as soon as i put the tranny in park, the idle started surging up & down again - gave it just a little bit of gas (brought RPMs up to about 1500 or so, then let off slowly, and it settled in at what it should be - around 700RPM +/- a little... I would really like to change some of the other hoses - primarily the ones having to do with the PCV - those are getting pretty stiff from age (not to mention kind of gunky). My question now is - what kind of hose to use?? can I use appropriately sized heater hose for these?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propane Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Congrats on making progress, been following the thread, to answer your question of replacement hose, the general knowledge ans is that heater hose isnt fuel resistant, so that is like a standard , further, its kinda formed w/ the 90" bend in it, (its piping hot exhaust gas)making it a posible oem , know ur ona budget, I'd like to know if Ebay sellers or such have a whole retro kit of generic replacement hoses for that corner of eng. Was lookin at mine thinkin to pull the ole AIC, and the condition of the hoses made me back off for a while seeing the same age and condition you did. Back to 1st OP, said it had poor idle at cold start up, which is "open loop" for OBDI then it when warm,idle roller coastered, which says its going to closed loop with under lying problem. thats the question, What? maybe check the tiny vac hoses on the presure switch, passenger shock tower area, those were always loose on older cars. ON another thread, titled cleaning TB? or such, Legacy 777 warns againest,cause the throttle plate has a sealer onit,that solvent will mess w/ then he goes on to say early TB , had a funny little trim screw for factory to fine tune idle, its flush mount he posted pix, don't know if related Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 thats kind of what I was afraid of - the one with that big bend in it - most of the others arent that bad, but the one that goes directly to the PCV... as far as cost - yeah, if I have to go oem on that stuff, then it is gonna have to wait a while. And Yeah - I would like to replace ALL of those lines back there, from the really short larger diameter peice, all the way up all of the small diameter vacuum line has been replaced... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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