Nad_1990245 Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Hmm..I was under the impression that that mod would allow for an EJ clutch to be used, as you are, in essence, installing an EJ transmission. However I do need to keep the power levels in mind...I will revisit that thread and maybe ask the fellow a question or 2 about it. Another reason it was attractive was cost as both of those transmissions together cost far less than an equivalent WRX 5MT (my other choice) and would only require time on my end. I do need to look into it more as replacing that setup over and over again would not be very exciting to say the least! Edited May 11, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Quotes from Poor Man's DCCD thread on Legacycentral bbs courtesy of LegSportWag: "I was looking at picking up an Rx. The beauty of this "franken-box" is if I would have put it in an Rx, gl10, or xt it would have bolted in without custom drive line, shifter linkage or trans mount.. Basically this would allow you to bolt an ej motor in with out the normal ej to ea adapter plate". "Same situation lets people wanting to do ej swaps in eacars run a normal ej clutch. Ea clutches are too small for the power an ej can produce. Especially turbo ej motors" " I thought the viscous diffs transferred a certain amount of torque per 400 rpm, which to me sounds like it should transfer more torque as RPMdifferential increases. But what I've experienced seems to be that it work fine under low RPM differential, and tends to just give up if you really get on it. I dunno, maybe my center diff is just old and tired,although the car it came from was in awesome shape without a ton of miles." (LegSportWag's reply) That's exactly how viscous centers are.. They get worse with time and usually after about 10 hard launches they are pretty well shot.. I'm loving this diff locker. Lights all 4 up consistently." I'm going to PM him and ask how it's held up, he's running a robtune 550 which is what I need to get. I do not know what turbo EJ he's running yet, but I will find out. Not arguing with Bratman in any way, shape or form - just trying to learn! Edited May 12, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Message I sent to LegSportWag: Hello,I was reading your Poor Man's DCCD thread and I have a couple of questions I hope you can answer for me. I'm currently in theprocess of getting ready to collect parts to do an ej22t swap w/ aTD0516G, 550 robtune and STi yellowtops into an ea81 hatch and I waswondering:How well has this mod held up for you? Have you had to replace any components yet? How well does this driveline function on adaily-driver basis?How much power are you currently routing through this "frankenbox"?Your response(s) would be extremely helpful to me in deciding which direction to take regarding my transmission choice.Thanks for your time!-- Dan We'll see if he responds, I hope so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I'm all for learning more too, if his is holding up well in a legacy with the robtune setup then it should be more than capable in an ea body. Depending on his response I might look into it as a future mod, as it would sure be cheaper than a dccd transmission, and I know where I can pick up an xt6 manual for cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Yes, that was what got my interest initially when I found that thread was the cost of the later, admittedly more capable transmissions versus this seemingly simple and cheap mod. I'm really hoping to hear that it's still together with no problems. I did note one possible downside to this mod: one is stuck with a 3.90 final drive. In my case, that was actually the ratio I wanted but I can see that being a turnoff for others tempted to try this. I am now looking into which cars came with LSD 3.90 rear diffs. There are not many. Edited May 12, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 I think the cheap answer for me in this case is to just procure a 3.90 diff (LSD or not) and swap the ring gear to any ratio LSD. This way, I figure I can get the LSD but achieve the correct final drive without dealing with backlash and preload by leaving the pinion alone. I realize I will probably have to do some grinding inside the case to do this, but no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Just thinking out loud here: wonder if I could use an R180 as it is factory LSD and swap ring gears...that would be convenient. I would be ok with using the larger rear hubs and all that that entails. One happy effect of all that work would be the fact that combined with the WRX 5 lug conversion up front, I would be at 5X100 at all 4 wheels - opens up a lot of possibilities for wheels and brakes. Edited May 12, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) LegSportWag's Legacy running a 550 tune w/ the Rx/XT6 center diff mod...leaving it here for some inspiration! http://vid14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/Gratefuldead538/10649397_840448102667115_587298792_n_zps62a24161.mp4 Would love to see a 60 foot timeslip on that car - bet it's awesome. Edited May 13, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two85s Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Very interesting thread/ project/ plan/ ideas! I've subsribed and thank you for posting from the beginning. Your plan seems to be awesome and economical which is what most people strive for. I look forward to seeing how this develops. Cheers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 That launch is pretty inspiring for the hybrid transmission. I think you'll find the best way you do a 5 lug swap with brake upgrade possibilities will be to get some XT6 rear hubs, modify the bolt holes on some legacy/impreza rear disc backing plates to fit the ea swing arm, and mod a legacy e-brake handle and custom length e-brake cables. That will allow you to use virtually any modern subaru rear brake system you want. For the front the only xt6 specific parts you would need would be the lower control arms, and sway bar (20mm sway bar). I would recommend using an ea82t crossmember and ea82 power steering rack, this will require some modification to fit the chassis since the frame rails are narrower on the ea81. There are pictures on the forum showing what is needed for this. But it will give the front a wider track, and using legacy/impreza knuckles and struts you can use axles from any 90-99 legacy or 93-01 impreza with the ej transmission installed with zero modifications. Also by using the more modern front knuckles you'll have access to virtually limitless brake upgrades for the front as well. As for the rear diff, you'll find it very much impossible (without expensive custom axles) to use an r180 diff back there, best bet would be an ea82t clutch pack limited slip chunk fitted into any 3.90 open diff rear. You'll of course have to grind a couple spots in the open diff housing for clearance for the lsd center. But it's a basically bolt in affair. And you will retain the use of stock rear axles for future replacements. I have done a good bit of planning for something similar to what you are planning. I've been patiently waiting for the right brat or coupe to modify to turn up, so I've ran through a lot of the scenarios for mods/upgrades in my head already. When I get to a computer I'll try to post some more detailed information, I'm on my phone and if I jump around windows too much it loses everything I've typed. Happened to me the other evening when I was getting my photobucket link for the head gasket picture lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 Very interesting thread/ project/ plan/ ideas! I've subsribed and thank you for posting from the beginning. Your plan seems to be awesome and economical which is what most people strive for. I look forward to seeing how this develops. Cheers Thank you, awesome and cheap is my personal holy grail here lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) That launch is pretty inspiring for the hybrid transmission. I think you'll find the best way you do a 5 lug swap with brake upgrade possibilities will be to get some XT6 rear hubs, modify the bolt holes on some legacy/impreza rear disc backing plates to fit the ea swing arm, and mod a legacy e-brake handle and custom length e-brake cables. That will allow you to use virtually any modern subaru rear brake system you want. For the front the only xt6 specific parts you would need would be the lower control arms, and sway bar (20mm sway bar). I would recommend using an ea82t crossmember and ea82 power steering rack, this will require some modification to fit the chassis since the frame rails are narrower on the ea81. There are pictures on the forum showing what is needed for this. But it will give the front a wider track, and using legacy/impreza knuckles and struts you can use axles from any 90-99 legacy or 93-01 impreza with the ej transmission installed with zero modifications. Also by using the more modern front knuckles you'll have access to virtually limitless brake upgrades for the front as well. As for the rear diff, you'll find it very much impossible (without expensive custom axles) to use an r180 diff back there, best bet would be an ea82t clutch pack limited slip chunk fitted into any 3.90 open diff rear. You'll of course have to grind a couple spots in the open diff housing for clearance for the lsd center. But it's a basically bolt in affair. And you will retain the use of stock rear axles for future replacements. I have done a good bit of planning for something similar to what you are planning. I've been patiently waiting for the right brat or coupe to modify to turn up, so I've ran through a lot of the scenarios for mods/upgrades in my head already. When I get to a computer I'll try to post some more detailed information, I'm on my phone and if I jump around windows too much it loses everything I've typed. Happened to me the other evening when I was getting my photobucket link for the head gasket picture lol. lol @ the phone issues, I know how that is. Once again, you have given me more food for thought and once again, your ideas are spot on. My thoughts with the R180 were in the direction of welding some standoffs back there with some reinforcement plates and directly bolting a legacy rear subframe to them utilizing WRX or STi stuff for the rubber (it's stiffer) for both the subframe and the diff - it would have been pretty much a beefed up legacy under there. At the time you posted this last night, I had been doing a lot of reading on the front and what to do there and in my head, I was almost where you ended up. One detail I could not find on Google for the front was how much wider the resulting track would be and how much wheel poke would result. In the rear, had I gone that subframe route, I would have gained 1/2" of track on either side. I freely admit that that was pure speculation based on data I found online and not actual measurements since I have neither an ea81 car nor a legacy to measure, but the data I found suggests that an ea81 car has a 58" width for rear track whereas the legacy is supposed to be at 59". This is why that idea appealed to me, combined with the fact that a lot of legacies came with 3.90 diffs (LSD or otherwise) and the ability to bolt an R180 in sealed the deal in my head. However, as long as the CVs and XT hardware could hold up to the torque of the 22t, that would certainly be the easier (and more likely to happen) route to take. EDIT: I have decided to go the XT6 route, it's just simpler, even if I break stuff Edited May 13, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) Updated for more parts added: Decided to also add prices to the build list. These prices are either what I can get locally or what I have found online. Subject to change, of course, but useful for both myself and others who may come across this thread with similar aspirations. (Incomplete and in progress as I research) EA81 Hatch - $$free all the way up to $4k (probably looking at in the $1200-$2200 range for a solid runner with good body from out west) EJ22t engine - $350 Legacy 3.90 final drive 5MT AWD transmission and AWD 5MT from RX or XT6 as per this thread:http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=53943&p=427585 (Looks very simple to do!) Legacy 3.90 5MT - Can be had for as little as $200+p/u. RX/XT6 5MT for "poor man's DCCD" mod - Can be had for as little as $150(!) plus p/u. TD0516G Turbo - New = as little as $205 on fleabay up to $1000 from Precision. Used=?? STi yellow top 525cc injectors - New = $100x4 Used = I found a set of 4 on CL for $100. 550 rob tune ej20g ecu plus 4to2 ignition converter: $350 (includes shipping, also assumes you are shipping ECU. $455 if he provides ecu for you.) '91-'94 Legacy Turbo harness - varied between $65-$150 for complete engine side and $50 for dash side. '02-07 WRX Tein H.Tech lowering springs w/ KYB Excel-G Struts $420 on CL. '08 Impreza R160 rear diff with 3.90 gears $150 on CL '00 Impreza Front suspension $80 each side (control arm, spindle, caliper, axle) on CL - $160 crazy deal! '89 EA82t 3.90 rear LSD diff assy. located on car-part.com - $150 plus shipping. Parts.com lists new front LCA for XT6 at $88.23 apiece - kind of pricey, but essential. Edited May 14, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) Did some digging online, found new wheel hubs from Subaru available as mentioned in the updated list. A curious thing that I'm currently pursuing lists this particular hub as fitting others as well: "This product fits 128 vehicle variants. Subaru: 3 models, 128 variants between 1985 and 1991." I do not know yet how accurate this is. I will edit this post with new info (good or bad) when/if I get to the end of this particular trail. EDIT:Pretty sure that list is a load of crap, look at all the models this hub supposedly fits HUB-REAR AXLE This genuine part fits your 1991 Subaru XT 6 Your Price $187.84Part Number: 23610GA041 This product fits 128 vehicle variants. Subaru: 3 models, 128 variants between 1985 and 1991. Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX 4WD-TURBO 3 DOOR COUPE 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX 4WD-TURBO SEDAN 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX 4WD-TURBO WAGON 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX DL-TURBO SEDAN 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX DL-TURBO WAGON 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX GL-TURBO WAGON 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX GL10-TURBO SEDAN 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX RX-TURBO 3 DOOR COUPE 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX RX-TURBO SEDAN 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX TURBO 3 DOOR COUPE 1986Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX TURBO SEDAN 1985, 1986Subaru DL/GL/GL10/RS/RX TURBO WAGON 1985, 1986Subaru Loyale DL 3 DOOR COUPE 1990Subaru Loyale DL SEDAN 1990Subaru Loyale DL TOURING WAGON 1990Subaru Loyale DL TURBO SEDAN 1990Subaru Loyale DL TURBO TOURING WAGON 1990Subaru Loyale DL TURBO WAGON 1990Subaru Loyale DL WAGON 1990Subaru Loyale RS 3 DOOR COUPE 1990Subaru Loyale RS TURBO 3 DOOR COUPE 1990Subaru Loyale TURBO 3 DOOR COUPE 1990Subaru Loyale TURBO SEDAN 1990Subaru Loyale TURBO TOURING WAGON 1990Subaru Loyale TURBO WAGON 1990Subaru XT 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991Subaru XT 4WD-TURBO 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991Subaru XT 6 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991Subaru XT DL 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991Subaru XT GL 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991Subaru XT GL-TURBO 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991Subaru XT GL10 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991Subaru XT GL10-TURBO 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 Edited May 13, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) Found a very nice table of spring rates, upper and lower spring diameters for both front and rear for all ea82, legacy and impreza cars to '04 courtesy of NumbChux. Leaving it here. Edited May 13, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) A lot of those spring diameters are wrong. All 93-03 imprezas have the same rear upper spring diameter which is also the same as all 92-99 legacys. The 90/91 legacy and 04-07 impreza/forester have the same rear upper spring diameter also. Edited May 13, 2015 by 86BRATMAN 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) If I could import it into excel and fix it, I would but I guess your post will be sufficient correction for anyone who dares tread the choppy waters of this thread On a side note, when I was thinking of modding the Legacy subframe into the hatch, I had a complete brain fart and forgot to consider wheretf the gas tank would go. This car would be driven primarily on the street and so I need the interior to be functional. This rules out a fuel cell of some sort. Whew, glad that popped into my head now instead of later. Edited May 13, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Did some digging online, found new wheel hubs from Subaru available as mentioned in the updated list. A curious thing that I'm currently pursuing lists this particular hub as fitting others as well: "This product fits 128 vehicle variants. Subaru: 3 models, 128 variants between 1985 and 1991." I do not know yet how accurate this is. I will edit this post with new info (good or bad) when/if I get to the end of this particular trail. EDIT: Pretty sure that list is a load of crap, look at all the models this hub supposedly fits HUB-REAR AXLE This genuine part fits your 1991 Subaru XT 6Your Price $187.84 Part Number: 23610GA041 This product fits 128 vehicle variants. Subaru: 3 models, 128 variants between 1985 and 1991. According to my parts book that number will NOT fit a XT6. Fits everything else that you listed tho. You want a 23610 GA220, which fits a XT6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) aaaand of course, that is NLA, as has been mentioned all over this forum. I did wonder why I was seeing it as it was Subaruparts.com that I found that part # at. The site is a little confusing in that it offers up 3 sets of rear end diagrams for the XT6 and 2 of them say "all exc. 4wd" but the 3rd does not and that one is the one I pulled that # from. Edited May 14, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 Finally found some information on front cross-member width differences, I had been trying to find this today: Measurements are as follows;Hole spacing, front to rear: EA-81 = 5-9/16" EA-82 = 5-9/16" ER-27 = 6-3/8" Legacy EJ18 = 6"Hole spacing, side - side:EA-81 Front = 31-1/4", Rear = 29-11/16"EA-82 Front = 32-7/8", Rear = 31-15/16"ER-27 Front = 33-1/16", Rear = 31-7/8" EJ-18 Front = 33-13/26" Rear = 32". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) Leaving this here as I wrestle with going with modding the legacy subframe or go the XT6 parts route in the rear. The ideas presented in that thread were similar to my own conception of how to go about installing the legacy subframe (I definitely would not go as gung-ho as this guy did with the shock tower treatments) I was planning on a tower to tower brace, just not as crazy as he did. Thanks to 86Bratman for finding this thread. http://www.rx7club.com/old-school-other-rotary-63/little-project-i-like-call-gloria-gl-re-ea-922472/ Edited May 14, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nad_1990245 Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) So to sum up: EA81 hatchback - must be rust-free (probably from west coast) and solid running (at least well enough to get back to NY lol).EJ22t engine with TD0516G turbo, 550cc yellowtops and a 550 Robtune ecu - should be good for somewhere btw 250-300bhp. Fuel System - hoping to utilize a deatschwerks300 in tank pump with stock sender if it will fit in the hole. If this does not prove to be feasible, then the stock sender and in-tank pump will be used, using the in-tank pump as a lift pump for a Deatschwerks 350iL or Bosch 044 pump plumbed in-line outside of tank with filter. This is very similar to a Volvo 240 setup which I am very familiar with.Front suspension - Impreza knuckles/struts/brakes.5MT from 1996 legacy with XT6/RX center as per the "poor man's dccd" thread on legacybbs.rear end - legacy rear subrame modded to fit EA81, running a 3.9 final drive R160 also from legacy. Legacy/impreza brakes and struts out back also. Cost - anywhere from $2k-$3.5k in parts plus the $$ for the car plus many hours of time So that's where I'm at so far.This should yield a roughly 225-250awhp car that weighs around 2300lbs with a full-time AWD, DCCD setup. Should be amazing. Edited May 20, 2015 by Nad_1990245 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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