Vanguard Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 92 Subaru Legacy L wagon 4WD I had all 4 struts replaced about 5 years. Yeah, sounds like awhile ago but the car has had all of 15,000 miles put on it in that time. In the last few months, I noticed the ride is more harsh (i.e., harder on the rump). The best way to describe the effect is "wheel slap" where the tires feel like they are taking too much of a hit over the bumps or transmitting too much of it to the car (and hence through the body, into the seat, and into my butt). There is no shaking when driving, no pull, no wobbling, or other looseness. I've had 3 different car shops inspect the suspension looking for loose ball joints, wheel bearings, or leaking struts. The only suggestion that might apply is that the springs are sagging. The place that made the suggestion of sagging springs was also the place that replaced the struts. I retorted that they were the ones that replaced all the struts and that even they thought 15K miles was far too short for the struts to be bad. They said that they replaced the struts but not the springs. I didn't realize that the springs were considered a separate part from the struts. So is there some way that I can measure the height of the car to determine if it is sitting too low because the springs are weak? Jacking it up would simply extend the struts to the stops so that wouldn't tell me if they were weak. I figure the springs under load would lift the car less if they were weak. But then maybe the height doesn't change and they simply won't let the car bounce as much to soften the bumps transmitted to the body (the car's and mine). Would the only way to know be to remove the struts, remove the springs, and test them with a compressor with a guage to determine how much resilience they have at different compression lengths? If so, I wouldn't have any of that to know the springs are good or not. So what would a set of 4 springs cost for the MacPherson struts, front and back? What might a shop charge to test the springs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 a good manual or body shop wil give you body height measurements, or even a good spring shop. It is possible your springs are tired. you don't need to replace the struts as long as they pas the jounce test, and aren't leaking. Its really a decision your going to have to make, as the labor is the same either way. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted November 16, 2005 Author Share Posted November 16, 2005 a good manual or body shop wil give you body height measurements, or even a good spring shop. It is possible your springs are tired. you don't need to replace the struts as long as they pas the jounce test, and aren't leaking.Its really a decision your going to have to make, as the labor is the same either way. nipper I have the 300-page Chilton book for the car but didn't see any height specifications. Guess I'll stop by the body shop or car the dealer to see if they will give me that info. Hmm, I wonder if the dealer would give me a free inspection. At the car shops, a suspension check is free (it draws in business). Maybe I could get a free suspension check from the dealer and ask them to include checking the height since they should have those specs. The bounce test was good on all four corners and why I suspected something like a worn ball joint, wheel bearing, or something in the suspension that would account for looseness that would result in too much freeplay and cause shaking or a harder ride. Since the struts immediately dampen the bounce, there would be no way to see from the bounce if the springs were weak or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 the dealer give you a free inspection to get you to spend money ..gee i dont know if they will go for that *snicker*. You need a manual that discusses body work and parts to find the numbers. The factory manual has that. Unfortunitly i only have factory manulas for a 88. You can also try to find another like yours around and park next to it, but a body whop wil have those numbers too. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offroadsubaruguy Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 the owners manual should hav ride height, ground clearance and stuff like that, i'd check there first..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outback_97 Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 FWIW, the "bounce" test never told me anything on my car, even though I had a completely blown strut in the front and it was leaking fluid. I'd get the thing bouncing up and down, when I stopped, it still dampened enough to keep it from continuing to bounce. So, IMO that doesn't rule out with 100% certainty a strut being bad. I would think it's safe to assume that in a 14 year old car, the original springs have lost some of their "spring". Just an uneducated assumption. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 I worked for a fleet managment compnay (job from hell). The industrial standard was either 1.5 bounces or the customer complaining. You would be surprised how many chin stores would tell the customer their struts were bad becayuse they were wet... even when the struts were less then a year old. We got to the point that we had a milage limit, or there had to be cupiing in the tires then they would get replaced. Bounce test is pretty standard. Spoeaking of ....how ARE the tires, are they cupped at al? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 I'll give my own thoughts on this... I just replaced my Monroe SensaTrash's that I had installed not long after I bought the car. They weren't worn, they just handle like rump roast. I replaced them with GR2's, which are new obviously, and considerably stiffer. I've also noticed that my car sits higher now... I think what's happening is the struts are stiff and new enough that they're bearing some of the weight that the old springs should be bearing, and now the springs are moving around inside of the struts thanks to that freedom of movement that they now have. Thusly, I have all kinds of thunks and creaks when I drive now, because the springs are moving around inside the struts. I've done all the troubleshooting on this, the struts are installed correctly, the springs are installed correctly inside the struts, strut mounts are new, all bolts/nuts are tight, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outback_97 Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 The industrial standard was either 1.5 bounces or the customer complaining. You would be surprised how many chin stores would tell the customer their struts were bad becayuse they were wet... even when the struts were less then a year old. nipper I had both front struts replaced by the dealer at 80K(? sorry don't remember exact mileage) miles, free of charge. I had a 3rd party extended warranty and struts were covered by this. One was definitely bad, it was leaking a lot of fluid and clearly when driving the car you could tell it wasn't doing its job. The strut top was even slightly bent (I'm assuming the weak strut contributed to this). In spite of this, the "bounce" test didn't reveal any problem to my untrained eye, maybe it takes someone more adept. The dealership was giving me static, saying they'd only replace the one, but in the long run I argued and got both replaced for only the deductible charge. Just my experience, not a universal truth. But IMO the Subaru suspension is good enough to "hide" one strut being bad when bouncing the car up and down, the other three corners cover for it. It's not like you can *completely* isolate the behavior of one corner of a four wheeled car with a well designed suspension that's made to keep the car stable. Sorry so wordy Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted November 16, 2005 Author Share Posted November 16, 2005 I'm somewhat loathe to the idea, but I recall those inserts that users could shove into their springs. They're a warped block with grooves that you insert between two adjacent coils, twist, and they either elevate those two coils or simply prevent them from coming any closer together. I forget what they are actually called. It seems a cheap way to fix weak springs but would only cover up the behavior exhibited due to them sagging and not letting the car sit at the correct ride height. They wouldn't help to provide the correct travel when the car was bouncing up and the coils extended. Still, maybe those things actually work. I haven't a clue if they exist for coils on MacPherson struts, if there is enough room to even use them. I only remember seeing them many years back for regular coil springs (i.e., not with a strut running up inside of them). I guess if they exist and they work that I could solve the problem until the struts go bad again and then I'd replace both the struts and springs (the labor outstripped the parts cost by quite a ways). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 THey exist for coil springs, and that is thier purpose in life. Unfortunilty they dont take care of ride quality, and one pothole and you loose them. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 I had both front struts replaced by the dealer at 80K(? sorry don't remember exact mileage) miles, free of charge. I had a 3rd party extended warranty and struts were covered by this. One was definitely bad, it was leaking a lot of fluid and clearly when driving the car you could tell it wasn't doing its job. The strut top was even slightly bent (I'm assuming the weak strut contributed to this). In spite of this, the "bounce" test didn't reveal any problem to my untrained eye, maybe it takes someone more adept. The dealership was giving me static, saying they'd only replace the one, but in the long run I argued and got both replaced for only the deductible charge. Just my experience, not a universal truth. But IMO the Subaru suspension is good enough to "hide" one strut being bad when bouncing the car up and down, the other three corners cover for it. It's not like you can *completely* isolate the behavior of one corner of a four wheeled car with a well designed suspension that's made to keep the car stable. Sorry so wordy Steve way cool to get the struts replaced for free. Yes the cars are thankfully over engineered, so it does take a while for problems to show up, and when they do, they are pretty far along. i have been lucky with struts ..havent had to replace them on a vehical in years, Guess it helps to buy cars over 150k on them, as they have usually been done already nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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