'93 Legecy, won't start

[buddyepa]

Here is the tale:

1. Bought the car for very little, a 1993 Legacey, one owner with 175K miles

2. Previous owner had the blown driver's side head gasket replaced

3. We drove it onto a trailer with copious amounts of white smoke being emitted

4. It ran smoothly

5. 45 minutes later it would not start to get off the trailer. It would sort of try, but would not start and stay running.

6. Finally started and sputtered and eventually ran smoothly. Let it run until most of the white smoke abated (water from the blown head gasket, right?)

7. Next day, same drill,ie, hard to start, but then eventually ran OK.

8. If restrted soon, all OK

9. Now, several days later, it will not start.

10. At some point, Check engine light came on.

11. I have the definition of the codes. Today, we will try to retreive the OBDE1 code(s).

12. I assume until that is done, there is little we can do except check all the wire and vacuum connections?

 

Sorry for the long post. :confused:

[lmdew]

You may still have a HG problem or a cracked block/head. Who did the work?

[john in KY]

How about a compression test? Any chance the intake manifold could be leaking at the gaskets?

[buddyepa]

John in Ky

 

I came over here with the questions based on your suggestion. Good to hear from you. The compression check showed it had good compression with not too much variation between the four, something like 120 to 145 psi if I remember correctly. I downloaded the Error Message stuff and frankly am a tad confused. Under the drivers side dash we found the following:

1-yellow, medium size with 7 wires/loose,ie, not plugged to anything

1-rather large brown plug, 2-wires, T-shaped

3-black, big, one from/on brake switch, one w/a single wire, loose, the 3rd is fixed down

2-green, T-sahaped. Only these greens were suitable to plug together.

 

None of the others seemed to be suitable to connect together. When the two greens were plugged together, the fans started to run and woukld surge in speed. The Check Engine light did nothing. The downloaded instructions indicated that there was an LED under there somewhere. None was found.

 

My stepson is supposed to purchase a repair manual tonight. Maybe it will shed some light on getting the codes.

 

On attempting to start it, it did try to fire like on one cylinder. It never did fully fire and run. The last time an attempt was made to start it was last Thursday. 3-days ago.

 

Even though the guy who replaced the head gasket was described to us a meth head, the compression check argues that compression blow by does not seem to be the problem. That said, I do notice that even when the thing does not run, the radiator becomes pressurized and can push by a new 13 psi radiator cap. Is that normal? If the cap is off, obviously coolant shots straight up.

 

:confused:

[john in KY]

Even though the guy who replaced the head gasket was described to us a meth head, the compression check argues that compression blow by does not seem to be the problem. That said, I do notice that even when the thing does not run, the radiator becomes pressurized and can push by a new 13 psi radiator cap. Is that normal? If the cap is off, obviously coolant shots straight up.

 

Not mormal to me. Really sounds like compression is entering the coolant system somewhere. Don't know about the first gen Legacys but in older models the LED is always part of the ECU. Just a small "window" about the size of a pencil erarser.

[buddyepa]

John in KY

 

Thanks. We will dig around and find the ECU. I think it is on the passenger side somewhere(?). We didn't get to mess with it this past weekend for a number of reasons. Hopefully, stepson has read thru the repair manual from Advance Auto. maybe it has shed some light.

 

[Legacy777]

pic of the ECU & TCU under the dash

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8080/subaru/images/ecuhide.jpg

[buddyepa]

pic of the ECU & TCU under the dash

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8080/subaru/images/ecuhide.jpg

 

 

Thanks for the very clear pic!! I assume putting the two green connectors together is supposed to allow the error codes(if any) to be read via the "Check Engine" light on the dash?? As I mentioned earlier, when we did that, all that happened was that the two cooling fans on the radiator came on and the speed of them "surged". Seems odd.

 

:confused:

[Legacy777]

The green connectors are for the D-check mode. You want to use the black connectors.

 

You can read the instructions from my site

www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/engine.html

 

Note the pictures on my site have the TCU mislabeled.

[buddyepa]

The green connectors are for the D-check mode. You want to use the black connectors.

 

You can read the instructions from my site

www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/engine.html

 

Note the pictures on my site have the TCU mislabeled.

 

Lagacy777

 

Thanks for the reply. What is the TCU? Also, in your instructions, it says to connect the black connector. Connect it to what? "One is black and connects one wire to one wire,...." I am not the brightet bulb in the curcuit, but do you say to connect the two black connectors to each other?

 

Since the engine will not run at present and the battery gets disconnected to charge it, is there anything we can get regarding stored codes after cranking it for a while?

 

:-\ :-\

[john in KY]

TCU = transmission control unit. The CEL doesn't flash. Find the ECU, which should be very near the test connectors, and then find that little "window". this is where the flashes occur. Don't know about the black connector but on older models I always used the green connector with the key in the ON position.

[bepa]

TCU = transmission control unit. The CEL doesn't flash. Find the ECU, which should be very near the test connectors, and then find that little "window". this is where the flashes occur. Don't know about the black connector but on older models I always used the green connector with the key in the ON position.

 

question I have a 91 SS and the CEL does in fact flash. is this because it's an earlier model or is the ECU causing the flashing. copied your chart for myself have a 2-2; 3-2; 4-2. I will replace O/2, idle switch and knock sensor.

then see how it runs.

 

have to watch what I spent. knew I saw that chart on the site some where. be well, enjoy your drive. subaru what to drive. D

[john in KY]

I honestly don't know. I have 2 XT6s that I tinker with and just assummed the trouble code retrival process for the XT6 and 1st generation Legacy was the same.

[buddyepa]

TCU = transmission control unit. The CEL doesn't flash. Find the ECU, which should be very near the test connectors, and then find that little "window". this is where the flashes occur. Don't know about the black connector but on older models I always used the green connector with the key in the ON position.

 

John in KY

 

So on yours, you connected the two greens together? When I did that, the fans came on. I guess we need to pull the ECU and see if we can find the little LED.

 

John in Winder,GA

 

:headbang:

[Legacy777]

Lagacy777

 

Thanks for the reply. What is the TCU? Also, in your instructions, it says to connect the black connector. Connect it to what? "One is black and connects one wire to one wire,...." I am not the brightet bulb in the curcuit, but do you say to connect the two black connectors to each other?

 

Since the engine will not run at present and the battery gets disconnected to charge it, is there anything we can get regarding stored codes after cranking it for a while?

 

:-\ :-\

 

Yes connect the two black connectors together.

 

If you've had the battery disconnected from the ECU for an extended period of time (hour or so) more then likely any stored codes have been erased. You don't need to start the engine to pull the codes, if any are there. Just put the key in the ON position with the black diagnostic connectors connected.

[Legacy777]

TCU = transmission control unit. The CEL doesn't flash. Find the ECU, which should be very near the test connectors, and then find that little "window". this is where the flashes occur. Don't know about the black connector but on older models I always used the green connector with the key in the ON position.

 

After 1990 I believe, the ECU's did not get the little green O2 monitor LED light.

 

All the first gen legacies need to have the black connectors connected to read stored codes in the memory. The green connectors provide a more "active" diagnostic check.

[Legacy777]

question I have a 91 SS and the CEL does in fact flash. is this because it's an earlier model or is the ECU causing the flashing. copied your chart for myself have a 2-2; 3-2; 4-2. I will replace O/2, idle switch and knock sensor.

then see how it runs.

 

have to watch what I spent. knew I saw that chart on the site some where. be well, enjoy your drive. subaru what to drive. D

 

Replace the knock sensor first. The plastic gets old, cracks, and the sensor shorts out. The O2 sensor may or may not be bad, but if you have not replaced it and your car has higher mileage, it'd be a good idea to replace it.

 

The idle switch is built into the TPS sensor, and you can adjust the TPS to properly set the idle switch, if it needs to be adjusted.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8080/subaru_manual_scans/FSM_Scans/TPS_testing3.jpg

 

What I recommend you do is clear the ECU, drive the car around, and see what codes come back.

[Legacy777]

John in KY

 

So on yours, you connected the two greens together? When I did that, the fans came on. I guess we need to pull the ECU and see if we can find the little LED.

 

John in Winder,GA

 

:headbang:

 

John,

 

It's normal for the fans to come on and you to hear clicking if you connect the green connectors. However, the code retrieval procedure is different between the first gen legacies and the XT's. See my post above for recommendations on what to do.

[buddyepa]

Lagacy777

 

Thanks for the reply. What is the TCU? Also, in your instructions, it says to connect the black connector. Connect it to what? "One is black and connects one wire to one wire,...." I am not the brightet bulb in the curcuit, but do you say to connect the two black connectors to each other?

 

Since the engine will not run at present and the battery gets disconnected to charge it, is there anything we can get regarding stored codes after cranking it for a while?

 

:-\ :-\

I see the recent posts now. Thanks, guys. However, since it will not strt, it's hard to drive it around. Next step, we will connect the two black connectors and see what happens.

 

:confused:

[buddyepa]

My stepson reports that he did not see a second black connector, so hopefully, he will cut some zip ties and see what falls out. I suspect the 2nd one is bundled and hidden in the maze somewhere.

 

The presurrizing of the radiator while only spinning the engine still bothers me. One conclusion from that is a cracked block (assuming the good compression check indicates no blown head gasket).

 

[buddyepa]

Stepson did find the other black connector. After almost a week of the car not starting, it started with no trouble today. However, white smoke has returned and smells of antifreeze. Connecting the black connectors with engine off did not retreive a code. On restart and letting it run, the check engine light did come on. It still pushes coolant past the pressue cap into the reservoir when the engine is wound up and then back to idle. Hopefully, he will retreive a code.

 

Using an IR temp device, he reports that one head is at about 200*F and the other is much cooler, about 170*F. Seems odd. The hotest one is the one the meth head supposedly replaced the head gasket. I have no idea why there is such a difference in temp while running.

 

:confused:

[buddyepa]

Now we have 2 codes.

 

1. #24- air control valve

2. #35- Purge contro; solenoid valve

 

It is again producing white smoke with the smell of anti-freeze. On restart it skips and sputters. The is an exhaust small in the radiator and the coolant level is down. Even thought the temp gauge seems to go up, then down the IR temp sensor(hand held) does not seem to indicate coolant overheating.

 

What and where is the air control valve? Is that the MAF sensor? On the intake side, I see the air filter, the MAF sensor and then the throtle body. Is there more?

 

A purge control solenoid valve sounds like something to do with emissions control and not likely to cause the engine to not run?

 

I am really searching for a clue to the ailments of this little beast. I am unfortunately concluding that it is either a cracked block(really expensive wihout a parts car) or a blown head gasket/warped head.

 

[quailman]

I would check to see ig the timing belt is off kilter, when the front main seal blew on my 93 it knocked the timing belt off wack ans caused a similar situation.

QM:banana:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

John in Ky

 

I came over here with the questions based on your suggestion. Good to hear from you. The compression check showed it had good compression with not too much variation between the four, something like 120 to 145 psi if I remember correctly. I downloaded the Error Message stuff and frankly am a tad confused. Under the drivers side dash we found the following:

1-yellow, medium size with 7 wires/loose,ie, not plugged to anything

1-rather large brown plug, 2-wires, T-shaped

3-black, big, one from/on brake switch, one w/a single wire, loose, the 3rd is fixed down

2-green, T-sahaped. Only these greens were suitable to plug together.

 

None of the others seemed to be suitable to connect together. When the two greens were plugged together, the fans started to run and woukld surge in speed. The Check Engine light did nothing. The downloaded instructions indicated that there was an LED under there somewhere. None was found.

 

My stepson is supposed to purchase a repair manual tonight. Maybe it will shed some light on getting the codes.

 

On attempting to start it, it did try to fire like on one cylinder. It never did fully fire and run. The last time an attempt was made to start it was last Thursday. 3-days ago.

 

Even though the guy who replaced the head gasket was described to us a meth head, the compression check argues that compression blow by does not seem to be the problem. That said, I do notice that even when the thing does not run, the radiator becomes pressurized and can push by a new 13 psi radiator cap. Is that normal? If the cap is off, obviously coolant shots straight up.

 

:confused:

[john in KY]

The reason the temp gauge goes up and down is there are air pockets moving through the system. When an air pocket hits the temp probe the needle drops. Then superheated coolant moves under the probe and the needle shots up. If this was my problem I would just bit the bullet and pull both cylinder heads to see exactly what is the problem. Very good chance the problem is a warped head or leaking gasket because the methhead didn't properly torque the head bolts. Didn't you earlier state the engine seemingly ran fine when you first bought the car? If true then this would point to a HG failure. If the air control valve and MAF are the same, PM me your address and I'll mail you an extra one I have.

[Legacy777]

The air control valve is the idle air control valve.

 

To me, both of the codes retrieved wouldn't indicate/cause the problems you are having.

 

I don't recall if this has been asked but are you aware that there is a bleed screw on the passenger side of the radiator that must be open to properly bleed the cooling system of air? If this has not been open, open it, and see how things go. However I'd probably suspect a headgasket or similar issue with the symptoms you described.