snoboy Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 I bet a lot of lurkers make thier first post this way... "HELP!" Here's where I am at: Car cut out on the way to work this morning. sat a few minutes, and was able to restart with a boost. As I pulled in to work the car cut out again. This evening after work (-17° C) car would not turn over. Got a boost, no success. I went at it with my tools and found: -healthy spark. -cranks over OK -dropped a little gas in the carb, air filter off, wouldn't even catch. -rotor turns when car is cranked -tried advancing and retarding timing a tiny bit (no light, just by eye) What is puzzles me, there is a spark, and fuel (splashing it straight in) and it is not even catching a bit... 87 GL wagon, EA82, 4wd auto Some history: -does not warm up well on cool damp mornings. -new plugs and wires a few weeks ago -new cap and rotor this summer -new fuel filter this summer -gas line antifreeze a couple weeks ago -new timing belts two years (~40,000km) ago - I'm stuck for ideas at this point. I am thinking that the next step is to check the timing belts, but it was getting a bit cold and dark for that tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeshoup Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 New timing belts, may be so, but 40,000kms is 25,000miles. That's almost half the life of a 60,000 mile belt. If you didn't replace the tensioners, that life is considerably reduced. Pop off those timing belt covers. The p/s belt may have snapped, or the d/s may have jumped a tooth. You need three things: spark, gas, and compression. If the timing belts are off, your compression is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 You don't think -17 deg. C has something to do with it? If you have a block heater, plug it in before you try again. I find my Loyale likes the blockheater plugged in around -10. It starts and runs colder than that, but it complains loudly (TOD) if I try. A car with marginal systems needs every advantage you can give it. The gas you are splashing in there maybe a problem. Is it fresh, winter gas, or summer gas left over from the lawnmower? Maybe try some ether starting fluid? Volatility is a problem at these temperatures. It sounds like your initial problem is charging system related, which is why it needs to be jumped. Marginal battery, and maybe alternator. Get it running first, then look at the charging system. If it is a jumped timing belt, it can screw up your ignition timing as well as valve timing, but playing with the distributor just complicates matters. Leave it be! One good thing is the temperature around here is going up a bit. Too bad it is going to snow instead! Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 the fact that a jump got it started once before is either coincidence or your electrical system has issues - i'd start there. are the terminal ends that connect the battery clean and tight? if they're loose or dirty this could easily be your problem. if you attached the jumper cables to old and marginal terminals then they may not do it any good. i can't see your terminal ends/battery cables so i don't know but i'd check their first. that's the most common issue i see in non-starting soobs. second i'd check both timing belts. any check engine light? second i'd look for vaccuum leaks - oil cap has a seal at the top. the EA82's i've worked on (mostly FI) were very sensitive to vacuum leaks, cutting off if they had a leak. the XT6 is much more forgiving...starts and runs fine with leaks for some reason, but not the EA82's i've worked on. check the coolant temp sensor too - tons of information on here and a very common issue. occassionally it won't trigger a CEL even if it's causing issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 is your intake freezing?? THATS REALLY COLD BRRR....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syonyk Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Or a frozen fuel filter? I never really believed in using HEET or such in my cars up until a few years ago. I had several cars that would start when it was cold, but had to warm up for a while to be able to go anywhere - they'd idle, but that was about it (and this included a Subaru). I tried a bottle of the ultra-mega-super-HEET stuff (red bottle), and... WOW. They'd start right up, be able to pull away after just a short while, and... yea. I had a lot of water in my gas without realizing it. You might want to try that. A frozen fuel line will cause a no-start condition in a hurry, and a splash of fuel down the intake might not vaporize well enough to do anything. -=Russ=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 You don't think -17 deg. C has something to do with it? I think it quite likely has something to do with it... this car has never really liked cooler weather, but usually does OK. If you have a block heater, plug it in before you try again. I find my Loyale likes the blockheater plugged in around -10. It starts and runs colder than that, but it complains loudly (TOD) if I try. A car with marginal systems needs every advantage you can give it. The gas you are splashing in there maybe a problem. Is it fresh, winter gas, or summer gas left over from the lawnmower? Maybe try some ether starting fluid? Volatility is a problem at these temperatures. Fresh gas picked up on the way to try and get it going... It sounds like your initial problem is charging system related, which is why it needs to be jumped. Marginal battery, and maybe alternator. Get it running first, then look at the charging system. If it is a jumped timing belt, it can screw up your ignition timing as well as valve timing, but playing with the distributor just complicates matters. Leave it be! I think there must be some sort of charging/battery issue, but figure it is a secondary problem to be solved once I get it running again. I went for the timing fiddle since HTKYSA suggested a loose distributor could cause a no start by getting the timing too far off. I returned it to original position when I had no luck. One good thing is the temperature around here is going up a bit. Too bad it is going to snow instead! Too good actually IMO, I love skiing... the car is sitting in the ski area parking lot right now. Hopefully it will come to it's senses tommorow when it is a bit warmer. If not I am going to have to go to the mechanic I think. I just don't have a lot of time right now to get this done. I will hopefully have time to check the timing belts first. If that is the problem I can fix it. Good luck. Thanks for everyone's help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 is your intake freezing?? THATS REALLY COLD BRRR....... I know I was!!! Warmer temps on the way tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 To answer various questions above: Nice clean tight battery terminals. It cranks strongly when the battery is charged, or it is being boosted. No CEL in this car AFAIK. Sounds like I should maybe try some ether and a good shot of HEET as well. I know this car is sensitive to dirty fuel filters or water in the tank. Former mechanic advised me on the HEET trick, and as soon as it starts running less than good, I toss a bottle in the tank. Always seems to help, when it doesn't then a new fuel filter ususally does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syonyk Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 One thing you could try is pulling the fuel line on the throttle body side of the fuel filter, connect the green test connectors, and turn the key on - this will pulse the fuel pump, and you'll be able to see if you have fuel spraying out (obviously have something to contain it in, and be careful). If the fuel lines are frozen, you won't get any fuel flow (or not any significant flow) from the filter. -=Russ=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted December 2, 2006 Author Share Posted December 2, 2006 Progress... The car is home, and running, but I am not quite sure what did it! I think my assumption that the engine should fire on either the gas poured in or on a shot of ether may have been mistaken. I belive now that the fuel pump may have been not operating properly, or the fuel line was frozen, or a bit of both. I was lucky enough to be offered to bring it in overnight to the shop at work to warm up and see if that helped. Well, since I don't often get to work indoors on my car I said yes right away. Getting it in the shop was a bit of an adventure due to the fact that it is intended for snowcat maintenace, and thus has lots of snow outside the entrance. Let's just say that the senior cat operator was allowed to push my car in with his blade. Timing belts checked out OK on visual inspection. Decided to confirm fuel pump function. Pulled the pump and tested it with 12V - it worked fine. Checked for voltage at connector - none... checked wiring diagram, realized it is hot only when key is in start position. Connector was also corroded, so I dissasembled it and cleaned it up. Now I had power to the connector. In the proccess one of the blades of the plug snapped (corrosion) so I have had to splice the wires directly. this will give me trouble in the future I am sure. Hooked everything back up, cranked for a while, still no start. Then it started to fire a bit, then it started! :banana: My feeling is that it was a weakened (due to bad connections) fuel pump coupled with a frozen fuel line. Getting it inside and renewing the connections to the pump seem to be what it needed to get going again. TIPS: If the "nut" in your timing belt covers breaks free from the plastic, you can apply gentle outward pressure to the cover while turning the bolt, and it will drill itself out of the back cover. QUESTIONS: How does the fuel pump work if it only receives power in the start position??? Is there a block heater available for the EA82? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 The Pump gets power when its in the on position it senses pressure drop and then pulsates... what you saw on you meter was it getting a power surge so it will boost the fuel pressure for start up... (correct me if im wrong guys) and idunno about the block heaters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 How does the fuel pump work if it only receives power in the start position??? The pump runs for only a couple seconds in the "run" position to prime the system. It runs continously in "start" while the engine is cranking, and again continously in "run" IF there is a tach pulse signal present at the fuel pump control unit under the dash. If the signal is lost (car accident resulting in engine stop) the fuel pump control unit turns off power to the pump to prevent a fire. Is there a block heater available for the EA82? Yes - or at least there was. I've seen them. Threads into the bottom of the block on the passenger side, and has a wire to plug into a wall outlet. Check with your dealer. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syonyk Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 How does the fuel pump work if it only receives power in the start position??? It doesn't. It receives power for a blip when the key is first turned on, when the key is in the start position, or when either the airflow or crank angle sensor (not sure which one) indicates that the engine is rotating/pulling air. This prevents the fuel pump from running if the engine is dead (say, in an accident). It's a safety thing. However, if you jumper the two green plugs together (diagnostic plugs), the fuel pump will pulse when the key is on but the engine isn't turning. Useful for debugging things. -=Russ=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 It doesn't. It receives power for a blip when the key is first turned on, when the key is in the start position, or when either the airflow or crank angle sensor (not sure which one) indicates that the engine is rotating/pulling air. This prevents the fuel pump from running if the engine is dead (say, in an accident). It's a safety thing. However, if you jumper the two green plugs together (diagnostic plugs), the fuel pump will pulse when the key is on but the engine isn't turning. Useful for debugging things. -=Russ=- It's the tach signal that drives the FPCU, and he has a carb, so there aren't any green test connectors for him. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syonyk Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Ah, thanks for the correction. All my EA82s have been FI. -=Russ=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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