mnwolftrack Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Hello, I need some assistance in diagnosing a noise on a '98 OBW automatic I just bought. I *thought* it was an alternator noise becuase I've heard noises similar to this and figured that's what it was. If you've ever started a Toyota when it's -30F degrees and the power steering pump whines, this is a lot like what it sounds. I've had noisy idler pulley bearings on other vehicles, and it is very similar to that. The noise is RPM related, not speed related. It changes pitch and tone with the change in RPM's. Speed doesn't matter, other than the car has to be moving. I misdiagnosed the problem before I bought it and figured I couldn't find the noise while poking around under the hood because the whine warmed up enough to disappear (common with power steering pump whine on Toyotas). The noise does not relate to speed, and it is not a wheel bearing. The noise is not a growl. The noise gets louder the harder I step on the gas while moving. The noise goes away while moving If I let off the gas and coast. If I coast at 55mph or 5mph, the noise is absent. The transmission shifts nice and smooth in all gears up and down, and there is no lag between gears (even when it's below zero here). Thinking it was the alternator, I took the power steering/altnerator belt off, and went up/down my driveway real quick (no power steering), and the noise remained (which canceled my dreams of an easy fix). I was rather shocked. The car originally came with a 2.5 per the underhood tag, but I just noticed the EJ22 stamp on the block when looking down at the engine from above, so someone must have swapped in a 2.2. I also noticed the valve covers and spark plug holes are much easier to get to on this car than on our other '98 OBW that DOES have a 2.5. I bought this car with the noise thinking it was a noisy alternator or other belt pulley, but I'm not so sure now. I am pretty good with cars but rather new with Subarus. Since I'm not super familiar with Subaru's, what are some things I can potentially do to help troubleshoot? Did I just shoot myself in the foot and sign myself up for pulling a tranny? I've pulled engines and transmissions out of other vehicles so it doesn't scare me, but I really wasn't planning on it with this one..... All fluids are clean. Previous owner may have changed them all recently.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Is this an automatic? nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 Is this an automatic? nipper oops, forgot that minor detail.... I edited the post to reflect that it is an auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 oops, forgot that minor detail.... I edited the post to reflect that it is an auto. Check your fluid levels. I'm wondering if it is your front pump in the tranny nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 Thanks--can you elaborate on this a little bit (meaning where the front pump is, how it is accessed, etc....). My luck I'll have to drop the tranny to get to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Not so fast. Change the fluid first. The front pump is in front of the transmission behind the torque converter (like all automatics). It will sound like a power steering pump if its having issues. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 Ok thanks. I tried searching "transmission pump" and "front pump" here while I waited for a response but couldn't find any info. I am also viewing an online Chilton's manual as we speak and the only reference to the transmission is how to remove it and reinstall it. It doesn't mention the internals of the transmission. Does this noise typically go away with a fluid change? I'm starting to wonder if the previous owner flushed all fluids before selling the car to try and make it look like it was cared for. If I flush the tranny, should I try a synthetic and/or additive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Sadly no. Replacing a front pump is possible, but in the long run a replacement tranny is easier to deal with. the front pump is the heart of the automatic tranny. Take it to an independent shop to have them confirm it since i cant hear the noise from here. I can be wrong. Get a haynes manual , chilton isnt great. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 Alright, I checked the fluid level this morning (-5F). I did not have a chance to drive the car around to warm up the transmission/fluid. I moved the car forward/backwards a few feet and moved the shifter through each gear for a few seconds. The level was about 1/4 inch below the low mark on the cold scale. So, the first thing I should do is add some fluid. Also to note, I was able to grab my automobile stethescope long enough for the problem to occur in park as soon as I fired up the engine. The noise IS coming from the transmission. The noise goes away after about 60 seconds of idling in park (the noise will come back if I try to drive it though). This morning, the noise flipped off like a light switch while I was listening to it with the stethescope touching the top of the bellhousing in the engine bay. The fluid looked clean and possibly new, albeit low. I noticed tiny bubbles (and not Wayne Newton) on the transmission dipstick. Cavitation noise perhaps? Merely just low level, or a sign of impending doom? Thanks for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 That sounds like the front pump all right. The noise and the bubbles are give aways. You still need to top off the tranny with the car running and after going through all the gears. Bubbles may be from low fluid too. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 Thanks Doctor! So.... what are his chances? What are the chances of the noise going away just by adding fluid? *cringe* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Thanks Doctor! So.... what are his chances? What are the chances of the noise going away just by adding fluid? *cringe* If the fluid is really low yes nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 It took about a quart of ATF, but it didn't help at all.... The noise is still very obvious at idle in park when I first start it up (I think we actually got above 0F today). After a minute, the noise goes away, but I can make it happen again by moving the shifter through the gears. The noise changes as the gears change. Eventually, it warms up enough so the noise doesn't happen while parked, and it will only happen once I start moving.... My transmission ID is TZ102Z2DBA-KF. What year transmissions are compatible, and are there multiple types that I need to be aware of (and the compatibility of?)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 I should also ask, how long would it take someone to replace the transmission? As I previously mentioned, I've been wrenching for about 15 years, but mainly on Toyotas. I've pulled engines, transmissions, done clutch jobs, headgaskets, and pretty much pulled every possible nut/bolt off a toyota pickup/4Runner. This is my first Subaru I'd have to do any major work on, so it doesn't scare me, and I'm rather familiar with more than just a standard oil change.... Lastly, any good places to get a transmission? There are plenty advertised on http://www.car-part.com (many in the $400-$600 range). I called a local shop and they said they'd give me a free estimate, but it could be anywhere from $1200 to $3800. I'm not looking for a brand spanking new transmission and don't want to put nearly as much into a transmission as is into the whole car. I'd rather replace it myself with a used one and save $$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Get yourself the haynes manual, it covers tranny R and R. I would imagine it takes the better part of a day. Since its a pump failure, check the fluid (when you drain it) for metal. This will help you determine what to do about the Torque Converter. If there is a lot of metal in it you may need to do a flush after the install of the tranny. I am sure someone else will chime in at this point. I havent R and R a transmission in ages. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 Thanks--I figured I better start a new thread regarding the time involved in dropping the transmission. NOT HAPPY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Thanks--I figured I better start a new thread regarding the time involved in dropping the transmission. NOT HAPPY! Sure, abandone me, see if i care *sniff* *sniff* nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 Oh no, definately not abandoning. People might miss my last question about time to remove transmissions because it doesn't really relate to my original thread title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 If everything else seems fine, pump whine on (very) cold startup wouldn't really concern me. Unless it was really loud. Guess I'd have to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 Yes, everything else seems fine. But the pump still wines under acceleration even when fully warmed up. It's hard to say how loud it is, but you can easily talk over it when fully warm while driving. When it's really cold, you'd have to speak up a bit to talk (but not yell). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 You could try some Lucas tranny fix (tranny honey) What do you have to loose? Sure quieted my PS pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 Since it's only $10, I bought a bottle of the Lucas "Transmission Fix." I won't get my hopes up, but I can wish. As the old man says in the movie Grumpy Old Men, "you can wish in one hand and cr*p in the other and see which gets filled first." Since I know my own luck though, I'm lining up a few potential used replacements via car-part.com and junkyarddog.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 16, 2007 Author Share Posted February 16, 2007 The Lucas Transfix did help a little, but not as much as I would have wanted. The noise changed from a constant whine during acceleration to more of a pissed off intermittant bumblebee noise. The noise goes away now as the transmission is upshifting between gears while accelerating. The bottle said it was mainly to help trans slipping, leaks, and hard shifting. It really didn't reference noise issues. I actually wasn't expecting the Lucas to make any improvement, but it did. If it only would have fixed it enough so I didn't have to get another transmission... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Maybe it bought you some time to find a deal on a tranny. Sometimes it takes a while to work it's magic? Wish there was a "miricle in a can" for a stripped VSS drive gear. The way I see my dilema the parts are gonna be around a buck and a half, the instal of said parts another buck..... and I still end up with a tranny with about 200 kmi on it. Maybe I should ne shoppin' for one also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share Posted February 17, 2007 I ended up finding a tranny with 53k on it for a good price ($550 shipped to me). So, I couldn't go wrong with that. If you're interested in shopping for yourself, I found several in the 60k-110k for very reasonable on car-part.com. I almost bought a different one from a place called Rich Industries in MO with only 75k on it for $350 plus s/h. Shipping to me made it a bit of a wash over the one with 53k, so I went with the one with 53k. The one I bought is a lot closer to me, so shipping was considerably less. I don't know anything about Rich Industries short of calling them and visiting their website. Their website was actually REALLY nice. You could look up inventories by make, model, year, or by part, see pictures of vehicles, and remaining prices left on those vehicles. The tranny with 75k is from a car that had a light hit in the rear (per photos). There were MANY other trannys under $500 on car-part.com though too. I'm just letting you know of the one I almost bought in case it would help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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