EJ25 from an '03 RS into a '92 Loyale: Fairly simple?

[Syonyk]

I've found someone who has an entire front clip from an '03 RS - engine, ECU, harness, etc.

 

How easy would this be to put in a '92 Loyale? I know I'd need the transmission adapter plate (who makes those anymore?), and I'd probably need to get the exhaust custom made.

 

Another issue is AC - I want to keep working AC, somehow. I've gathered I can either build an adapter to use the EA series AC compressor, or modify the hoses to use the EJ series compressor with the R134A or whatever the environmentally friendly junk is. I'd probably need to put in a larger condenser, though, to keep cooling performance the same.

 

Would it be worth trying to use the '03 ECU, or is that new enough that I'd be better off just using a standalone (Megasquirt or such)? I gathered that the newer Megasquirts can decode the EJ crank angle sensor, so it seems like it wouldn't be that difficult.

 

Also, what's fair market value for a 60k mile EJ25 SOHC? He wants around $1000 for it, which seems a bit high, but if that comes with the ECU/harness/etc, it might be reasonable.

 

And, what can the EJ25s make with some mild cams and intake/exhaust work? I'd be putting a slightly hotter cam in, free flowing exhaust, cone filter, and then possibly the standalone.

 

Thanks!

 

-=Russ=-

[suberdave]

its not going to be easy to get an OBDII engine working in a non OBDII car. if you use the 03 ECU it will have all kinds of codes.

 

personaly i would go with a nonOBDII engine. if your going to spend that kind of money. add a bit and you can get a EJ20G.

 

my $0.02...

 

-=Suberdave=-

http://www.suberdave.com

[Syonyk]

its not going to be easy to get an OBDII engine working in a non OBDII car. if you use the 03 ECU it will have all kinds of codes.

 

personaly i would go with a nonOBDII engine. if your going to spend that kind of money. add a bit and you can get a EJ20G.

 

So if I wanted to use the EJ25, a standalone would be the way to go? I've got no problems with that - part of my goal is highway economy, which would involve using a standalone to tweak mixture and timing into "interesting" ranges (lean and advanced at cruise).

 

EJ20G - will the EA82 transmission take that kind of power, or would I have to do a full drivetrain swap? Ignoring the question of hooking up that kind of power through 2x185/70/13s...

 

-=Russ=-

[86ruguy]

Don't mind Dave, he HAS a EJ20G swapped GL10 and he did the whole drivetrain. I would however state that if you are going to do the swap for ECONOMY then for $1000 bucks you could get the Adapter plate from

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=73232&highlight=ej+adapter+plate

 

and do an EJ22, I did one and should have done it again but i found a pair of Legacys for really fair prices.

 

a 90-94 EJ22 will have an OBD1 system and will have plenty of power to suprise all the little Honda guys. if it is also a 2WD of PT4WD car it will be easier to keep the tires from breaking loose everytime you take off from a stop.

 

My EJ22 swapped car had a FT4WD gear box with 15inch pugs and 195/70r15's and I could still break 'em loose if I tried.

 

If you want shear HP then the EJ20G is the way to go with the EJ tranny and all. A little more expense involved but I've seen Dave car and with the 5lug swap it is a very SWEET looking car.

 

Just my .02 worth

[Syonyk]

I'm more interested in "usable power" than "gobs of power I'll never use" - I live in Iowa, where interstate speeds are 75+mph, and when fully loaded with people or computers or (whatever), if I've got an uphill onramp, I'm lucky to be doing 50 when I get to the merge zone. Oncoming semis that can't get over... well... I've spent more time hanging out in the shoulder at speed than I care to discuss.

 

What kind of power are the EJ22 swaps making? I was under the impression most EJ22s are in the 130hp range, which isn't that huge of a jump from 90hp.

 

I'm also not at all opposed to going standalone, as stated before. OBDI/OBDII/etc is ECU based, not engine based.

 

The big factor here is that there's someone fairly local with the EJ25, and it's kind of rare to find EJ-anythings in junkyards, at least around me. Not quite as much of a laugh from junkyard workers as asking for Daihatsu parts, but... new gen Subarus are pretty darn rare.

 

-=Russ=-

[GeneralDisorder]

I was under the impression most EJ22s are in the 130hp range, which isn't that huge of a jump from 90hp.

 

Says the man that's never done the swap....

 

Let me ASSURE you that 130 HP is a LOT for the weight of the Loyale. You will easily smoke all 4 with an AWD trans. I would not put the EJ in front of a non-lifted 5 speed D/R. Perhaps an RX FT4WD box if I had one, but most definately not the part time box. It's too much power and could easily damage it. An EJ25 with 180 HP would disintigrate the EA 5 speed in short order.

 

As a poor example..... I put an EA82 SPFI engine from a 93 Loyale in my Brat - a vehicle with only 74 HP upgraded to 90. That's a mere 16 HP increase in stock form, and the EA81 had a Weber prior to the swap. The thing is now quite fast - faster than it needs to be, and plenty fast to easily get me in trouble. It will do 100 MPH flat out, and probably more. It will be scary with my planned EJ22 swap and ANOTHER 40 HP. I can't see it holding to the pavement without AWD as it can barely take off now without melting the tires on the 5 speed D/R I installed at the same time.

 

HP is one of those strange intangible elements that is often overstated - people claim huge HP benefits for things like Weber installs, etc. But between an EA81 with a Weber and an SPFI EA82 there exists a BIG difference. A Weber adds nothing to the EA81 other than throttle response and low-end torque. Peak power is unchanged.

 

GD

[Syonyk]

Says the man that's never done the swap....

 

Fair enough. That's why I'm asking first.

 

An EJ25 with 180 HP would disintigrate the EA 5 speed in short order.

 

That's good to know, then. I was assuming that since people have the EA82Ts pushing 160-170hp the gearbox could handle it, but I suppose the EJ25 would have a lot more torque than an EA82T wound up tight.

 

If that's the case, then I'll probably just look at trying to find an EJ22 somewhere. Or... if I can find one for a good price, maybe just look for a newer Subie to take daily driver duties. A 2000 Legacy GT would be nice.

 

The other thought I had is that maybe there's something wrong with my EA - compression is good, but... it's more gutless than I recall my '87 GL being. I might have a partially clogged cat or something. It's really quite slow, and fuel economy has been lower than it seems it should be (all as compared to the '87 GL, which was basically the same car, just without AC).

 

-=Russ=-

[GeneralDisorder]

The other thought I had is that maybe there's something wrong with my EA - compression is good, but... it's more gutless than I recall my '87 GL being. I might have a partially clogged cat or something. It's really quite slow, and fuel economy has been lower than it seems it should be (all as compared to the '87 GL, which was basically the same car, just without AC).

 

Now here I think you have hit on something worth taking into account. I have an 86 carbed sedan which I installed a Weber on - the engine is original, and has 238,000 miles on it. It is currently my daily driver and find that it actually has an amazing amount of power. My SPFI Brat will beat it for sure, but that engine is rated 6 HP higher and the body is lighter. But the sedan moves more than adequately for a daily driver. I don't have any trouble merging, or maintaining 55 or 65 MPH up long grades even in 5th gear. Anyone familair with Portland knows the grade going from downtown to the Beaverton area via Hwy 26 - I can maintain 55 MPH up that grade in 5th gear the whole way, and I can pull it at 65 in 4th if I desire. Compare that to my ex-girlfriends 86 Hitachi carbed EA82 wagon that couldn't even pull it at 40 to 45 - I did a lot of work to that engine and never did figure out what it's problem was. I have a feeling though that the timing belt crank sprockets may have been reversed. Either that or the Hitachi had issues that I never resolved. It was gutless beyond beleif and I knew it couldn't be right....... I have to say that this $100 sedan I got on a whim from some dude's yard has treated me very well, and restored my faith in the viability of the EA82 N/A engine as a simple reliable tool to get the job done.

 

I would say you just have an as-yet undiagnosed problem that's robbing a good percentage of your power because even with the older 84 HP carbed EA82 I don't find it scary to drive, or underpowered anymore than I do your average minivan for example.

 

GD

[Syonyk]

Hm. I've got the throttle body/AFM/injector/fuel pump/etc from the 'GL (friend fried the motor in it after I sold it, and I was able to take parts before he scrapped it - still pissed about that). I'll try swapping them in and see if I can get it to run better.

 

I suppose another factor is that the Loyale has a full exhaust system - the GL had the y-pipe, a glasspack, and then out. I'm running both cats, and a muffler. I didn't think it would be a huge difference, but if one of the cats is a bit clogged, it would explain some of the power loss. I suppose I can try running with just the y-pipe and see how it does. Or just get a custom exhaust system made - I've been wanting to do that anyway.

 

So only being able to hit 45-50mph on an uphill on ramp isn't normal for an empty Loyale?

 

-=Russ=-

[GeneralDisorder]

Hm. I've got the throttle body/AFM/injector/fuel pump/etc from the 'GL (friend fried the motor in it after I sold it, and I was able to take parts before he scrapped it - still pissed about that). I'll try swapping them in and see if I can get it to run better.

 

I doubt the fuel system is to blame - you could try getting a new O2 sensor and putting on a cone filter. That's what I have on the Brat's engine. The Nissan 240SX MAF adaptors fit the SPFI MAF. I would be looking at the timing - it's difficult to tell when just one belt is a tooth off for example. And your exhaust is a good place to start too - clogged cat can really hurt performance. You should run a D-Check on the SPFI just to be sure it's in running order too.

 

I suppose another factor is that the Loyale has a full exhaust system - the GL had the y-pipe, a glasspack, and then out. I'm running both cats, and a muffler. I didn't think it would be a huge difference, but if one of the cats is a bit clogged, it would explain some of the power loss. I suppose I can try running with just the y-pipe and see how it does. Or just get a custom exhaust system made - I've been wanting to do that anyway.

 

I have a full stock exhuast - the muffler is a replacement, but appears to be a stock type replacement. I found it at the junk yard as the one on the car was hosed. Y-pipe and mid are stock originals, and I haven't gutted the cat on it as I've done with my EA81's. I think what you are thinking is a second cat is actually the resonator. All EA82's have a single cat as far as I know - even my sedan which was a CA feedback carb model has only one.

 

So only being able to hit 45-50mph on an uphill on ramp isn't normal for an empty Loyale?

 

Certainly not for me - both the on ramps two blocks from my house are uphill and I usually have to slow down from 60+ to merge as the traffic doesn't always comply with my desired speed in the slow lane. At any rate I actually feel that my sedan is quite quick for what it is - comparativly I felt it was an accident waiting to happen with the stock Hitachi when I got it. It wouldn't as easily maintain higher freeway speeds, and the low end grunt for things like uphill merging just wasn't there. The Weber and the SPFI are both excelent in my experience however.

 

It really doesn't take much of a problem to lose 20% engine power.... in any vehicle. It's just that with the EA82's 20% is the difference between a decent, average car, and being run over. Take 20% of the power off a modern engine like the EJ25 and you still have enough power that someone who isn't familair with the vehicle may never know anything is wrong with it at all. That's the reason the EA series engines have such a bad reputation for being underpowered - they really aren't all that bad, but most have something wrong with them after 20 years that makes them seem worse than they really are.

 

GD

[Syonyk]

The only thing the ECU complains about is the oxygen sensor - it has 20k miles on it, which is young, but... the rear main dumps oil down around it, so it may very well have fouled out. Shouldn't affect wide open throttle power, though - just fuel economy at cruise.

 

One thing that I have noticed is the intake - it seems like it's sort of collapsed down on itsself (the angle going to the throttle body from the intake) - I may try to wedge that open with something and see if anything improves. I suppose a vacuum gauge would also tell me what I need to know (much vacuum past the throttle body at wide open throttle = resistance in the intake system).

 

I'm fairly sure the cams are timed properly - I've replaced the timing belts, and there was no before/after difference. Would the cam sprockets being reversed cause issues, though? I don't recall there being a difference in angles, but... I could be wrong.

 

How would one test for clogged cats, short of removing them? There's the blob at the junction of the Y-pipe that I was told is a cat, and then I thought the cylindrical thing under the driver's area is a cat as well.

 

Other symptoms of things being not quite right include a rough idle (it shakes more than it should - rocks the car at times), hesitation when cold at partial throttle, and being completely gutless with the AC compressor on (hot day, AC on, foot on floor, I'm more or less cruising at 75).

 

-=Russ=-

[idosubaru]

i just read through the post and didn't see any info.

i bought a 93 loyale wagon for a friend earlier this year and it ran great, didn't have any trouble pulling hills or holding highway speeds. wasn't a powerhouse, but held it's own just fine. being a 5 speed, it handled my mountain commutes quite well.

 

any check engine light or codes? diagnostic check?

when is the last time a tune up was done? plugs, wires, cap and rotor?

PCV and fuel filter?

have you ever used a K&N style oiled air filter? the MAF could be fouled...though i don't recall if the loyale has the hotwire style or something else so that is easily bogus.

vaccuum leaks also come to mind.

yes, unbolt it at the y-pipe and see if that does anything, that will rule out a converter. it will be very loud, but they run fine without any exhaust. disconnect your O2 sensor too, they also run fine without that. bad gas mileage at the most, but otherwise run fine.

 

good luck.

[Syonyk]

i just read through the post and didn't see any info.

i bought a 93 loyale wagon for a friend earlier this year and it ran great, didn't have any trouble pulling hills or holding highway speeds. wasn't a powerhouse, but held it's own just fine. being a 5 speed, it handled my mountain commutes quite well.

 

Mine will hold highway speed, but not horribly well - slight hills and I'm flooring it to hold 65-70mph. I know it's not insanely fast, but the Loyale is very definitely slower than my '87 GL was.

 

any check engine light or codes? diagnostic check?

 

Check engine light has started coming on, reporting O2 sensor issues. This is recent, and I don't notice a difference in engine operation from before it started doing this.

 

when is the last time a tune up was done? plugs, wires, cap and rotor?

Plugs/wires quite recently, cap/rotor maybe 10k miles ago, and they look fine.

 

PCV and fuel filter?

Fuel filter when I got the car, 20k miles ago. PCV hasn't been replaced.

 

have you ever used a K&N style oiled air filter? the MAF could be fouled...though i don't recall if the loyale has the hotwire style or something else so that is easily bogus.

It's hotwire, and I've cleaned it off with carb cleaner - there was a bit of crud on it. I haven't used an oiled filter - just paper ones.

 

vaccuum leaks also come to mind.

yes, unbolt it at the y-pipe and see if that does anything, that will rule out a converter. it will be very loud, but they run fine without any exhaust. disconnect your O2 sensor too, they also run fine without that. bad gas mileage at the most, but otherwise run fine.

 

good luck.

 

I'll look for vacuum leaks, and try disconnecting the Y-pipe. That'll definitely provide some data. I'm also going to pick up a vacuum gauge and check it both at idle, and at high RPM WOT - if my intake boot is restricting things badly, it'll show there.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

-=Russ=-

[Syonyk]

I found at least part of the problem.

 

Know that nice hard plastic Subaru badge on the top of the rubber intake snorkel?

 

Yea... it's not just there for decoration. It's functional.

 

I decided, since I actually had money, that a vacuum gauge would be worthwhile for troubleshooting. At the very least, I could see what my intake system was doing.

 

Hook it up to the intake manifold, do a hard pull. Result? 2.5" vacuum by 5000 RPM. Not... what I was hoping to see.

 

I put some zip ties around the rectangular boot to try and arch the top up, to see if that would flow better. Do a pull, and... 3.5" vacuum by 5000? WTF?

 

It had sucked it in, and reversed the arch, so it was restricting the flow more.

 

So, I bent up some coat hanger wire, wedged it in (even if it does come out, it won't fit down past the injector), and set it so it was holding the top part up, slightly arched. 1.2-1.5" vacuum at 5000 RPM, 2" at 6000 RPM.

 

And it definitely pulls harder up high. I'll probably raise my shift point by 500 RPM.

 

So... that badge? Worth at least a few HP. :-)

 

I'm not sure I've taken care of every issue yet, but at least one is definitely tracked down. Thanks for the suggestions/"Yes, your car isn't running right"!

 

-=Russ=-

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah - I don't like those stock snorkel tubes.

 

On my Brat with a cone filter on the end it seems alright - the way it's situated in the bay the tube is at a better angle to not collapse like that so I probably don't notice it much.

 

When accelerating up to freeway speeds I generally shift around 5,000 - 6,000. The redline of the SPFI block is 6500, and for the short time it's near that durring shifts it's no problem for them. The EA81 aicraft guys run them at 7,000 or more for hours.

 

GD

[Syonyk]

Yeah - I don't like those stock snorkel tubes.

 

I'm trying to decide if I have space under the hood to work up something that flows a bit better or not. I may just work out a bulge for the top so the air can arch in - that's sort of what I have now with the coat hanger bits propping it up.

 

On my Brat with a cone filter on the end it seems alright - the way it's situated in the bay the tube is at a better angle to not collapse like that so I probably don't notice it much.

 

Any chance of getting a pic of your setup? I've been kicking around a cone filter, but I haven't tested yet to see if the stock filter actually is a restriction.

 

When accelerating up to freeway speeds I generally shift around 5,000 - 6,000. The redline of the SPFI block is 6500, and for the short time it's near that durring shifts it's no problem for them. The EA81 aicraft guys run them at 7,000 or more for hours.

 

I had been shifting at 5000, because that's where the power completely fell off. After opening up the intake, it seems to pull decently through at least 6000.

 

Thanks again for all the help!

 

-=Russ=-