NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Heres the story, I drove my 93 Loyale 5spd for almost 6 months with NO exhaust and NO o2 sensor and had NO problems other than the CEL for o2 sensor. So after getting some money together I managed to get enough to pay for a new exhaust built. The shop did a great job for the most part. I had to go back because it started a leak(the hanger came un-welded, creating a small hole) and while I was there I had them weld in a NEW Bosch o2 sensor. OK great. The car runs fine and has no more CEL and no problems. So yesterday(the next day) the car developes a weird stalling issue for no apparent reason? As I am cruising through a parking lot at about 2500RPM the engine RPMs drop to zero(car shuts off, CEL flashes 1 time.) and the car keeps driving. It did this probably 4 times on the way home(30 minutes or so) it does it completely randomly no matter what gear, rpms, if the clutch is in, etc. It feels very similar to if your driving and turn the ignition key off then on really fast. I drive the car home and check around under the hood but dont see anything unusual. Today (first day of 12th grade) I am on my way to school and the car stalls off and on about 3 times within 5 minutes, on the 3rd time the car stalls and wont fire. I crank it for a few minutes with no luck, so I pop the hood and pull the o2 sensor wires apart hoping it would fix it. I cranked the car with no luck and then it finally fired. I drove the car to school and it did it 2 times(but did not actually TURN OFF.) I then drove the car home and it did it about 3 times and turned off 2 times, both while the clutch was in, when I was coming to a stoplight/sign. Keep in mind that the car does this 100% randomly. I need to fix this immediately. The only thing that I can think of is that when he welded the o2 sensor in he possibly fried something(he did not disconnect the battery). Or because of WHERE he welded it, it isn't giving an accurate reading?(I dont think this now because it does it regardless of the o2 sensor plugged in or not.) What could this possibly be? The plugs, wires, cap, rotor, pcv, fuel filter, air filter, have all been changed within 6 months. I have also cleaned the MAF 6 months ago. The picture on the left is the "stock exhaust" and the right is the "new exhaust" the yellow dot represents the o2 sensor. The car CEL does not turn on EXCEPT 1 flash when it does the stalling thing. Where do I start? PLEASE HELP!!!! Thanks, Tyler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom63050 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Where he welded it shouldn't really matter, although the stock location would be a better place to monitor all four cylinders. And if you disconnect the O2 sensor it will still run. Is your coil stock or aftermarket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 stock coil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 You might try replacing the fuel filter. Also check the fusible links for a bad connection. They a in a box mounted on the coolant reservoir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 You might try replacing the fuel filter. Also check the fusible links for a bad connection. They a in a box mounted on the coolant reservoir. fuel filter was replaced not long ago. fuisble links were tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
testy Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Check if you negative battery terminal is tight. The muffler shop would have taken the battery out when welding most likely or at least unhooked it when they put the new sensor in. Clean the terminal. That was happening to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 Check if you negative battery terminal is tight. The muffler shop would have taken the battery out when welding most likely or at least unhooked it when they put the new sensor in. Clean the terminal. That was happening to me. They did not, I know this because my clock was still regular, and I had all my radio presets still. I tried to reset the cpu again(by removing negative wire for a few minutes). We'll see what happens today.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 Wow. Now my damn car wont start at all. I reset the ecu last night, and plugged in the o2 sensor. It ran like a champ no problems at all. Now I goto start it this morning and it will not fire, just crank. I need my damn car to work. I have no one able to give me a ride to school because I live far from everyone else. And there is no bus either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Wow. Now my damn car wont start at all. I reset the ecu last night, and plugged in the o2 sensor. It ran like a champ no problems at all. Now I goto start it this morning and it will not fire, just crank. I need my damn car to work. I have no one able to give me a ride to school because I live far from everyone else. And there is no bus either. Sounds like an electrical issue. Perhaps the circuit that controls power to the ignition? Perhaps in the ignition switch itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azsubaru Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 You need to go back to basics and forget about the exhaust. It may have nothing to do with your problem Are you getting fuel to the injector? If your fuel pump has been going out, it can cause problems similar to yours. turn the key to "on" and listen for the pump to cycle for about a second. The noise comes from near the right rear wheel. If no noise, it may be stuck, so go back there and whack it a few times to see if you can jar it loose. Got fuel? then are you getting spark? a distributor or coil going bad could also cause the problems you've been seeing. I'm sure others on here have better troubleshooting skils than me, but I've had all three of these happen to my Loyale, and I'm sure they are pretty common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Well hopefully this no start is due to the same intermittent problem you were having and by fixing this it will clear up the troubles. If you have some starter fluid try spraying some of it into the intake to see if the engine will try to run on that. If not then check for voltage getting to the coil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 I think it is the coil. I am not getting any spark. How can I check the actual coil? I tried disconnecting the wire from the middle of the disty, held a screwdriver to it and did not get any spark. I also tried taking out a spark plug and did not get any spark either. How can I check if the coil is getting power without a voltometer? Also, the CEL does not come on anymore when I turn the key halfway to "Accessory" It has ALWAYS came on before. Possibly burnt bulb? But it worked last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durania Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Goofy alternator maybe? When mine went out a few weeks ago it wouldnt show the low voltage light on my brat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revbill Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 lso, the CEL does not come on anymore when I turn the key halfway to "Accessory" It has ALWAYS came on before. Possibly burnt bulb? But it worked last night. This has happened a few times on my Loyale, and I think it is the ignition switch or one of the wires. Sometimes I get the same no-CEL situation and the car will crank but not start. I can wiggle the wires or pound on the steering column when it happens, and the light goes on, and the car starts fine. I never got around to fixing it, but I would start with the ignition switch and the wiring down there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1bignose Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 cap and rotor if they are fine check your pickup in your distrabter, if your ecu dose read your distrabterfor your fuel,coil, and etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 Just replaced the Coil with an Accell. It did not fix the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 It seems as if the CPU is not getting power? The CEL doesnt come on, neither does the monitor light? It was on last night?!? Could this be from a bad CPU or what? I looked around and see nothing unhooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZRX Doug Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Thank god! I thought I was going nuts..Sue ('89 GL SPFI) is doing pretty much the same thing, only not as bad. (she doesn't actually stall, just hesitates and jerks) If you watch the tach the needle bounces about 800 rpm during each "event." I went nuts trying to fix this issue..my hot-rodder's brain said "coil" first, so I replaced that with a new aftermarket unit..no change. Next up was the pickup in the distributor..so I swapped in a used lo-mileage distributor, along with new cap, rotor, wires & plugs..no change with the pertinent problem, but she ran a bunch better in general. I finally decided to quit guessing and actually read the trouble codes.. I got a #14 "Fuel Injector-abnormal input." Replaced the whole throttle body with used unit. Got rid of the #14 code, but not the weird ignition issue. #21 "Coolant Temp or circuit" Cleaned up the terminal and replaced the temp sensor with a known good unit. Cleared the #21, still got the fits & jerks. #32 "Oxygen sensor or circuit" No surprise there, Sue hasn't had an O2 sensor for the past ten years or so..installed a new Bosch universal which cleared the code, but didn't do a thing for the ignition problem. #33 "Vehicle Speed Sensor or Circuit." I haven't gotten around to this one yet, she needs a new speedo cable and time/funds aren't there for it right now, but I don't see what this would have to do with it anyway. Finally, while driving into work in the rain the other day I found the right direction to be checking..she was doing the fits & starts thing, tach bouncing like a monkey on crack, and the windshield started to fog up from all the humidity..so I turned the defroster on "High" to clear the 'shield, and at the same moment the ignition problem went away. Turn the heater off, tach goes whacky and car starts surging, turn it back on "High" and the car runs normally. I have since discovered that it doesn't need to be the heater blower..turning on the headlights or any other electrical accessory (or combination of low-draw accessories) with a fairly high amp draw will do the same thing. I'm thinking there's gotta be a crappy connection somewhere that lets power to the ignition sorta fizzle and spark as it will..adding more amps to the circuit makes it momentarily improve the connection, sorta mini-arc welding it while the additional load is applied. Does this make sense to you guys, or have I been breathing too much exhaust & burnt oil? I'm not gonna have time to chase this silliness down until the weekend, but in the meantime turning on the headlights/heater makes the car happy, so I'll do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom63050 Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Just replaced the Coil with an Accell. It did not fix the problem. I have had aftermarket coils be bad from the start, or fail intermittently as you are experiencing, so I'm thinking coil too. Do a search on "jegs coil" in the Older Generation forum and go to the thread called "Coil Problems...what's going on" for advice on aftermarket coils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 22, 2007 Author Share Posted August 22, 2007 I have had aftermarket coils be bad from the start, or fail intermittently as you are experiencing, so I'm thinking coil too. Do a search on "jegs coil" in the Older Generation forum and go to the thread called "Coil Problems...what's going on" for advice on aftermarket coils. It seems as if the CPU is not getting power? The CEL doesnt come on, neither does the monitor light? It was on last night?!? Could this be from a bad CPU or what? I looked around and see nothing unhooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZRX Doug Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Take a look at my first post above, our symptoms seem to be very similar IMO..I'm dead certain my problem is going to boil down to a poor connection, whether it be bad ground, bad contact points in some switch, or something as stupid as a broken wire. I've been where you are and have also replaced the likely coil and other components to no avail. Just wondering if any of the hardcore Sube guys would know any likely places to look for a failed item of this nature.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 What I would do, is take off the shroud around the steering column. Also, remove the plastic panels above the driver's legs. Find the wires attached to the ignition switch, and with the key in the on position, jiggle those wires on either side of the plug and also at the solder joints where they go into the back of the switch. Watch to see if the CEL comes on; because you are right, that light should come on with the key and turn off once the engine starts. This *could* be a bad ECU.. it *could* be explained by them leaving the battery connected when they did the welding... but more likely it is an intermittent connection issue. The wiring in the ignition switch is not all the greatest; many people have to rig a bypass for the starter section because the switch fails to carry enough current to activate the solenoid. Thats not exactly relevant to YOUR problem, but it is a similar situation to what I am trying to eliminate. If you can get ahold of an FSM (http://ch601.org/engines.htm) and identify the applicable relays under the dashboard, try wiggling those wires as well while watching for a CEL. Also, go check your fusible links again. Have someone watch for the CEL while you wiggle each side of each contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDriverOlderRide Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 I bought a multimeter today. Symptoms- No spark, no CEL, no power to the ECM(guessing). Where do I start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZRX Doug Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 With a wiring diagram..I'll be jumping in the same boat with ya very soon if it's any consolation. I'll be starting at the battery and working my way back thru the ignition switch to start..seems to be a total power loss to the whole system rather than any single component, so may as well commence firing right at the heart of the system, yanno? I may be taking a good solid look at the back of the interior fuse box first..noticed some rainwater dripping back there, that CAN'T be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Good to hear that you purchased a meter. This tool will save your bacon for many years in the future. I think it's one of the best and most important tools to have in your tool box. The first thing to check for a problem is the fusible links that are in a box that is mounted on the coolant reservoir. Make sure the connections are tight and you have 12 volts on each side of the links. If they are good then move on to the fuse panel and make sure all the fuses are good. Fuses 5 and 12 are very important and I can't remember what others right off hand. You can use your meter to check them without pulling the fuses. You will notice there are small spots, on the top of each side of the fuse element, you can place your meter probe on to check the voltage. One easy test to check fuse 5 is to see if the horn works. Another possible problem area is the ignition relay. If the other things check out then this may be where the culprit is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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