WAWalker Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Does anyone have any 90-94 and 95-96 cam shafts laying around that they could take pics of side buy side? I need to see the differance between the solid cam and roller cam. You can e-mail pics to WWalker2615@aol.com. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 There is a 2.2L article on endwrench.com that has a pic of the roller style, but I didn't see a pic of the solid style in there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted September 20, 2007 Author Share Posted September 20, 2007 Only cam specs I can find is lobe hight and they are different. But want to see the differnce in the profile. I've got one that is making me pull my hair out. Misfiring at idle. Not a dead miss. Codes for misfire on #1 & #3. Compression: 1/130 2/180 3/145 4/185 Leak down: 1/6% 2/8% 3/6% 4/8% Cam timing right........................ Cam timing is dead on. Genuine Subaru timing belt. Cam sprokets have been replaced. Crank sproket and key way are good. This is a "rebuilt" 2.2L transplanted in place of the 2.5L in a '97 OB. I am the 4th or 5th one to try and nail down this mis. Fun Fun Fun. I'm thinking mis matched cams, but am not ready to pull both cams. Would rather just pull one and figure out how to identify it, to determine if it belongs in a '95 2.2L engine. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 I'm sure you checked that injectors are identical and maybe swapped them to check. You covered everything I've seen except mismatched pistons, mismatched heads, and I even saw a Harley with one wrong connectiog rod. That one drove us nuts. Oh yeah, one engine had valve guides too tight one one side too, and I have seen one with shimmed bucket tappets where the clearance was not enough when warm. You can usually hear or feel a bad hydraulic lift after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 Is it using the 2.2L's ECU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 [...]Misfiring at idle. Not a dead miss. Codes for misfire on #1 & #3. Compression: 1/130 2/180 3/145 4/185 Leak down: 1/6% 2/8% 3/6% 4/8% Cam timing right........................[...] Since you're concentrating on the cam lift and profile, I assume that you suspect an incorrect cam could affect total valve opening and amount during any particular part of an engine cycle. (I also assume you've checked valve clearances.) Obviously, the leak-down percentage being lower on the "bad" bank would seem to indicate good valve (and ring) sealing, and yet the compression is measuring low on those two cylinders. So, you've probably thought that perhaps the intake valves are closing late on #1 & #3. Before you tear things down, how about testing for when the intake valves are actually closing? Using your leak-down equipment, slowly bring the crank around through BDC at the end of the intake stroke for each cylinder, and carefully note the position of the crank pulley or sprocket at the point where leaking into the intake stops. You could mark a reference point with a small paint dot, using a different color for each bank (or cylinder). If #1 & #3 are different in position than #2 & #4, you've got certain confirmation that something is wrong cam/valve-wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted September 20, 2007 Author Share Posted September 20, 2007 Since you're concentrating on the cam lift and profile, I assume that you suspect an incorrect cam could affect total valve opening and amount during any particular part of an engine cycle. (I also assume you've checked valve clearances.) Obviously, the leak-down percentage being lower on the "bad" bank would seem to indicate good valve (and ring) sealing, and yet the compression is measuring low on those two cylinders. So, you've probably thought that perhaps the intake valves are closing late on #1 & #3. You got it. Hydro lifter buy the way. Before you tear things down, how about testing for when the intake valves are actually closing? Using your leak-down equipment, slowly bring the crank around through BDC at the end of the intake stroke for each cylinder, and carefully note the position of the crank pulley or sprocket at the point where leaking into the intake stops. You could mark a reference point with a small paint dot, using a different color for each bank (or cylinder). If #1 & #3 are different in position than #2 & #4, you've got certain confirmation that something is wrong cam/valve-wise. Exellent! That is what I needed. I tend to get to a point with these things were I can't think straight anymore. I knew there had to be away to confirm or deny my suppision without doing a tear down. Thanks! This will be my next step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 I think thats a great idea too. I've usually just torn everything down which is a time consumer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 [...]Exellent! That is what I needed. I tend to get to a point with these things were I can't think straight anymore. I knew there had to be away to confirm or deny my suppision without doing a tear down. Thanks! This will be my next step.You're welcome, I hope it helps determine what's going on. By the way, I should mention that of course there'll be two places where there should be coincidence, 180 degrees apart. A degree wheel might possibly make things easier. EDIT: http://www.tavia.com/free_degree_wheel.html http://www.lucasinjection.com/Degree_wheel_100.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 3, 2007 Author Share Posted October 3, 2007 Ok, this car is fixed. Pulled both valve covers so I could see when the valves were closeing. (useing a leak down tester is not real acurate) I noticed right away that the lifters on the effected cylinders were pumped up all the way and the others were not. Pulled both rocker arm assemblies to get a good look at the cams. Two totaly different cams! One was a solid rocker cam, and the other was a roller rocker cam. The bank with the solid rocker cam was fine (w/ roller/hydro lifter rocker arm assembly). The bank with low compression had a '97-'98 roller/solid lifter cam, near as I can figure. (w/ roller/hydro lifter rocker arm assembly). Sourced a set of matching '95 cams and it runs great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Good job sport. That sort of thing can be murder to find. Thanks for telling us the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 [...]Pulled both valve covers so I could see when the valves were closeing. (useing a leak down tester is not real acurate) I noticed right away that the lifters on the effected cylinders were pumped up all the way and the others were not.[...] I'm a bit surprised that leak-down testing with a degree wheel on the camshaft didn't confirm a problem, considering how different the cam profiles apparently were... [...]Two totaly different cams![...]Sourced a set of matching '95 cams and it runs great....but it's great that the tear-down proved your theory of what was causing the problem! Thanks for sharing the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 It's easier to eye-ball the cams to tell if they are roller rocker or not. Roller rocker cams: all lobes are equal width. Non-roller: middle lobe on each side is wider. Obviously wider. Emily http://www.ccrengines.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 It's easier to eye-ball the cams to tell if they are roller rocker or not. Roller rocker cams: all lobes are equal width. Non-roller: middle lobe on each side is wider. Obviously wider. Emily http://www.ccrengines.com Hi Emily, When I talked with you on the phone you said "journals" rather than "lobes", so I told the guy the cams had to come out. Took him a while to make up his mind to pay me to pull them. When he did, as soon as I had both rock arm assemblies off it was obvious. Once both cams were laying side by side on the bench it is so obvious I don't know how the mistake was made in the first place. That is exactly why these types of problems are hard to diagnois. It is just hard to believe that someone rebuilding an engine wouldn't notice that, and put two totally different cams in, let alone cams from two different years that are not even right for the MY engine that they are building. Fun, fun, fun:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 I'm a bit surprised that leak-down testing with a degree wheel on the camshaft didn't confirm a problem, considering how different the cam profiles apparently were... Well..........the reaction of a leak down tester is slow and gradual. As the valve starts to close there is very little pressure change, as it closes the pressure starts to rise slowly then faster the closer it gets to closed............well the easyest way to say it is........your dealing with compressed air, it is "mushy". A dial indicator at the rocker arm and the degree wheel would be the way to go. This was the direction I was headed when I seen the difference in the lifters. I don't think the difference is in the deg. at which the valves open and close, I think it is more in the lift. I believe you could run any 2.2L set of cams in any MY 2.2L engine as long as you had the proper rocker arm assembly to go with them. The bank with the low compression had, near as I can tell, had a '97-'98 cam installed, but the '95-'96 rocker arm assembly. '97-8 had solid lifters, '95-6 HLA, which can not compensate for the '97-8 cam. Anyhoo, it is a done deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 [...]your dealing with compressed air, it is "mushy".[...]That may indeed be the main difficulty, because a change in lift should also somewhat change valve timing, all other things being equal (that is, assuming a lower cam profile, but it and the follower's shape otherwise unchanged, etc.). Under those conditions, if lift is reduced, a valve will open later and close earlier; if lift is increased, the valve will open earlier and close later. (HLAs might be able to take up some of the slack.) Anyhoo, it is a done deal.Yeah, this is becoming an academic discussion. In the end, finding and fixing the problem is really what matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 That may indeed be the main difficulty, because a change in lift should also somewhat change valve timing, all other things being equal (that is, assuming a lower cam profile, but it and the follower's shape otherwise unchanged, etc.). Under those conditions, if lift is reduced, a valve will open later and close earlier; if lift is increased, the valve will open earlier and close later. (HLAs might be able to take up some of the slack.) That makes sence. This is why the solid rocker cam with inccorect lift, on the LH bank was working with the roller rockers. The profile of the lobes are different. Different ramp up and down, different duration. (Although there is not near as much differance as I would have expected. And I haven't been able to find these specs) The lift (lobe height) was not '95-6 spec but the profile was such that valve timing was not adversly affected. Yeah, this is becoming an academic discussion. In the end, finding and fixing the problem is really what matters. The discussion is a exellent learning tool though. Understanding how things work makes find what needs to be fix easier the next go around:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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