psychsurf Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Damn, ok here we go... Just got my subaru ('87 EA82T), flew out and drove it 12 hours home without any problem. Well, except for that pesky intermittent CEL. The PO told me that his guy had traced it back to the knock sensor, and that it probably just needed to be cleaned up. There doesn't seem to be much pattern to the CEL. It doesn't stay on for more than a couple of seconds at a time, usually just a flash. It happens most when driving around town and revving and shifting a lot. But not always. It happens least when cruising at speed on the highway, but sometimes gets active then too. I pulled to codes just now, and I came up with the following: 11 Ignition Pulse/Crank Angle Sensor 13 Crank Angle Sensor or Circuit 21 Coolant Temperature Sensor or Circuit 22 Knock Sensor or Circuit 23 Air Flow Meter or Circuit Honestly, I don't even know where to start. I don't know a thing about 11 and 13, for all I know those are there because the car wasn't running when I pulled the codes. On 21, the temp gauge seems to be working ok, and I think that on 23 it would be running poorly if something was up with the MAF, right? As for 22, like I said the PO did mention that, so I'm sure that's an issue. Can other stuff trigger the knock sensor? I ask because the exhaust kind of rattles against the rear control arm sometimes. I don't even know how long it has been since the codes were cleared. Maybe I should clear the codes and see which ones pop back up? Anyway, I obviously don't have a clue, and would really appreciate any help you all can give on where to get started. A little bummed that I'm messing with CELs already, it has to be my least favorite thing in the entire spectrum of car ownership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Yes you are right, you should clear the codes and see which ones return. But knowing that those did show I would address these items: the MAF - is it a hotwire style MAF (i think yours is based on your description but can't be sure, many changed right around 87). if so, get some MAF cleaner and clean it..gently, those wires are very thin. when removing it, make sure none of those hair thin wires are broken. and then clean them, they get dirty and can cause problems. as for the water temperature sensor problem, find the water temperature sensor and clean the plug and contacts. the sensors don't fail, the contacts get corroded and dirty and heck the plastic harness plugs just fall apart sometimes they are so brittle. this problem is so bad and prevalent and reoccuring in XT's that i actually strip mine down and solder the wire straight to the sensor. the crank angle sensor is in the distributor. the internal surfaces can be cleaned, the optics get ditry, but you might want to check the distributor for play as well, the bushings/bearings can go bad. or just swap in a used one - be certain to get the exact disty for your car. so keep in mind, there are a few different styles and in general the 87 can be a whacked up year for EA82's since wiring and some other things changed then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 If the engine wasn't running when you took the code check then that may be the reason for codes 11, 13,and 23. If codes 11 and 13 were really active the engine wouldn't run. The code for the coolant sensor, 21, isn't for the temperature gauge in the dash. This is a different sensor for the ECU that has 2 wires going to it I believe. Make sure the connection to it is good and if you don't find a problem there then you need to replace the sensor. The ECU sees there is trouble with that circuit. A lot of times the sensor will go bad and make the ECU think that the engine never warms up so the ECU makes the engine run a rich fuel mixture. Check the knock sensor connection to make sure it is ok before replacing it. If you do replace it, be careful not to over torque the unit when tightening it. You can subsitute the knock sensor by replacing it with a resistor that is about 520k (520,000 an 1/2 watt)ohms in value. This should only be a temporary fix until you can get a replacement sensor if you do that. Hopefully the MAF code will go away also with the car running. If not then check the connections to it to make sure they are good. To reset the ECU you can disconnect the battery for about a half hour and I think that will clear any stored codes from the past. If all is good though the codes will clear by themselves after time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 psych, since you are new to the EA82T finding the CTS (Coolant Temp Sensor) may be difficult. First it does not have anything to do with the temp gauge as you allude. That is the coolant thermometer. Below is a shot of the intake manifold with all the top stuff removed. Following what gary says you can see the corrosion in the "well" where the contacts are. The knock sensor is in the same area but more towards the drivers side and screwed into the block. The other codes are probably ghost codes set one time it did not start. Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 17, 2007 Author Share Posted December 17, 2007 Most helpful, everyone, thanks so much. At least now I have some starting points. Thanks especially for the photo, I wouldn't have had a clue where to find that one! What do you guys think about the knock sensor? I've seen the advice on wrapping the threads in teflon tape to decrease the sensitivity. What else should I look at or work on with that? Would a tapping exhaust pipe set it off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 Ok, for what it's worth, the light came on at startup as I headed to work tonight, and stayed on long enough for me to read the current code. The only one that was flashing at that point was 22, knock sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 remove it and inspect, the ones i've seen that are bad are brittle with age and may even fall apart upon removal. check the wiring harness plug and the sensor itself for any signs of cracking or corrosion. probably a continuity or resistance check to do on the sensor to but i don't know the spec's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 What do you guys think about the knock sensor? I've seen the advice on wrapping the threads in teflon tape to decrease the sensitivity. What else should I look at or work on with that? Would a tapping exhaust pipe set it off? Clearing the code for the knock sensor has nothing to do with your suggestions. The problem is either due to a bad sensor or the connection to it. You most likely will have to replace the sensor to clear the code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 What's up, cougar? How cold is anchorage right now? I'm from Homer, way back when. Don't miss it a bit these days! Thanks for your reply, cougar. It actually crystalized some latent information in my head... Tell me if I got this right... The knock sensor, if activated and doing what a knock sensor is supposed to do, won't actually trip the CEL, right? It'll just retard the timing a little. So, since the CEL is indicating the knock sensor, there's really something wrong with the sensor or sensor circuit itself? For some reason, I had it in my head that the knock sensor code was coming up because it was detecting a knock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 It's a small world isn't it. The current temperature here is -1 degF at the moment. You're on the right track now about the knock sensor. What you said is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 Ok, I'm going to try to crack that nut this afternoon... Now where the heck to you get a knock sensor if this one is bad? And how do you test the sensor? Looking around online I only found one place selling them, and I had to tell the parts search function that I was looking for a 1988 knock sensor, plus they want like $80 for it! Surely there must be some other place to source these? Oh, and by the way... I've spent just about all night at work looking up everything I can find here about the knock sensor and the temp sensor. When I read about some of the voodoo problems people have run into with this stuff, it just makes me feel ill... Especially knowing that the PO and his mechanic were well-versed and well-experienced with ea82 subarus, but left it with this code. I'm hoping (fingers crossed!) it was as simple as not wanting to spend $80 on a new KS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 As if I didn't need one more thing to mess with... 1987 gl turbo ea82 yadda yadda. Headed back home this morning, was about 29 degrees as I started my 40 minute commute. Warmed it up, took off and was thinking, "wow, it's really running great!". No sign of a CEL, no problems at all, turbo turboing with gusto. CEL only flickered once, about 25 minutes in. Once I got to town and hit the stoplights though, it started acting funny. I'd take off, and it would buck a couple of times as I started to accelerate out of my upshifts, the CEL blinking in time to the bucking. It did that through the first couple of lights, then on the third light bucked hard twice and died. It was really hard to get started again, and when I did I had to keep the revs above 1500 to keep it running. At this point my tank was showing just under 1/8 of fuel, my little red indicator had just appeared. I pulled into the next gas station, filled it up with 12.5 gal of gas (not a full tank, I was far from running on fumes), and no more problems. So... What the hell am I looking at now? Is this a fuel pump now? Kind of seems like dying fuel pumps I've seen in the past, but wanted to get some further opinions. Could this have anything to do with the knock sensor I'm already throwing codes for? At the time, the CEL only flashed in time with the bucking I described, but after I filled up it came on and stayed on with code 22 flashing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 Ok, pulled the codes again, they're the same as yesterday and the thread I started then... Guess I should have just posted this to that thread... Anyway, they are 11, 13, 21, 22, 23. Would any of these be responsible for that complete loss of power bucking when warm? I remember now that it did it once as I was getting to work last night, so it would have been run about the same amount of time at that point. Sorry about the two threads, a moderator is welcome to merge them for me. So, anyone have any input on this new and much more disturbing development? It was just a nuisance light before, but now it's a real problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I suspect that the gas level was low enough that when you accelerated the fuel went towards the rear of the tank and that allowed the fuel pump to suck in some air. This would have created some air bubbles in the fuel line and the bucking when they got to the engine. The specs for my '88 wagon shows the tank capacity at 15.9 gallons. As an experiment you could see what happens when you shift slowly when the tank is that low again. The price of 80 dollars for a knock sensor is about the going price for one of these and I suspect that the past owner didn't want to spend the extra money to fix it so he past it on to you that way. As I stated previously, you can fool the ECU using a resistor in place of of the knock sensor but I only suggest doing that until a new sensor can be installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 I managed to coax it into bucking one time on the way to the mechanic's today (for the AC, the only think I won't mess with). It really feels more like an electrical than fuel thing. It's like someone is simply turning the key on and off a couple of times real quickly. Complete and instant power loss followed by complete return... And repeat. But it was weird how it was the worst at the bottom of the tank. I'll check into the fuel system after I get my code gremlins sorted out after the shop tells me what's wrong with my AC system. Damn I have a lot of little things to figure out in the next couple of weeks. Anyone want to sell me a knock sensor for a 1987 EA82T? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 The problem you describe could be due to a bad fuel pump. I assume the fuel filter has been changed recently. If not, try that first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 You know, that was my first thought, after having had a couple of cars that killed fuel pumps... Even scarier, it was my WIFE'S first thought too! Heaven help me if it is, I'm already getting an endless supply of "I told you so"s for even buying this car! So, then a bad fuel pump won't throw a code? And how to test it? I know, time to search again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 An intermittent pump may not show up on a fuel pressure test necessarily. You may need to just replace it and see what happens. I had a pump that would hiccup going up a particular hill. New pump and no more problem. The ECU doesn't look at the pump circuit so no codes for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 I'm doing this much for my own reference and research, but you can't accuse me of not contributing. So, since I couldn't find it anwhere else here, and searching the internet for this part was an exercise in extreme frustration... The part numbers for the knock sensor on the EA82T are as follows: ACDELCO - 213-2325 Found on autopartsgiant.com @ $69.38 and oehq.com @$61.02 and brightauto.com @ $56.00 Standard Motor Parts - KS89 on autopartsgiant.com @ $57.38 and partsamerica.com @ $87.99 Niehoff - WA1715 on partsamerica.com @$87.99 Key words: Knock sensor detonation sensor part number part# 1987 gl ea82t loyale turbo Hopefully this will save someone some trouble down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 OH MY GOD!!! This just keeps getting worse and worse!! I went to pick the car up from the mechanic who diagnosed my AC issues, and it WON'T EVEN START! It cranks and cranks and cranks just fine, but won't kick over. This is in a car that two days ago would fire up when the starter barely engaged. The mechanic hit it with a test light real quick and said it was acting the like the ground was switching on and off randomly when the key was on. They hadn't called to tell me they were having trouble starting it because it was acting that way from the time I dropped it off. I have no idea what that means, so guess what? I'm leaving it with the mechanic and paying him another $100 to figure out what's wrong with it this time. I've seriously never had a car take a dump on me so incredibly quickly. It went from making a 600 mile trip with little more than a busy CEL to sitting dead in a mechanic's parking lot in the space of only FOUR DAYS. The worst part, and the part that currently has me riled up, my wife is relentlessly chewing my rump roast for flying 600 miles to buy a pig-in-a-poke that I didn't know the first thing about, taking a stranger's word that it was in great shape, and spending all this money fixing up a car that isn't even worth what I paid for it to begin with. And you know what? I can't say a damn thing in my own defense, because she's right! It was a stupid move, and now I'm reaping the consequences. Yeah, I can get it running and then sell it, that's probably what I'll do... And if I'm really lucky I'll get back what I paid for it. All the work I'm doing is just bonus for the next owner. I bought this car to drive to mexico for my surf trips... Think I can trust it for 3000 mile trips into the great unknown now? Yeah, don't think so. Screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 OH MY GOD!!! This just keeps getting worse and worse!! I went to pick the car up from the mechanic who diagnosed my AC issues, and it WON'T EVEN START! It cranks and cranks and cranks just fine, but won't kick over. This is in a car that two days ago would fire up when the starter barely engaged. The mechanic hit it with a test light real quick and said it was acting the like the ground was switching on and off randomly when the key was on. They hadn't called to tell me they were having trouble starting it because it was acting that way from the time I dropped it off. I have no idea what that means, so guess what? I'm leaving it with the mechanic and paying him another $100 to figure out what's wrong with it this time. I've seriously never had a car take a dump on me so incredibly quickly. It went from making a 600 mile trip with little more than a busy CEL to sitting dead in a mechanic's parking lot in the space of only FOUR DAYS. The worst part, and the part that currently has me riled up, my wife is relentlessly chewing my rump roast for flying 600 miles to buy a pig-in-a-poke that I didn't know the first thing about, taking a stranger's word that it was in great shape, and spending all this money fixing up a car that isn't even worth what I paid for it to begin with. And you know what? I can't say a damn thing in my own defense, because she's right! It was a stupid move, and now I'm reaping the consequences. Yeah, I can get it running and then sell it, that's probably what I'll do... And if I'm really lucky I'll get back what I paid for it. All the work I'm doing is just bonus for the next owner. I bought this car to drive to mexico for my surf trips... Think I can trust it for 3000 mile trips into the great unknown now? Yeah, don't think so. Screwed. First, how well do you trust this mechanic. You drove the car there right? Now it doesn't work, so you give him more money? That is the stupid move. Buying the Subaru from 600 miles away sight unseen is not the wisest move, unless you are already an "expert" on them and can troubleshoot anythig. I bought my 89 turbo wagon from 2000 miles away. I Also showed up to get it, armed with tools, An 89 FSM, and a 100 pound box of parts. Sounds like he plugged in the test connectors and left them that way. I wouldn't trust him If he's not VERY familiar with Subarus, espescially the EA82T Oh yeah, and for surfing in Mexico, I think we all told you that the EA82T wa the one engine to stay away from(it's a great engine, but needs attention after years of neglect). You need to get an SPFI GL or loyale, or a legacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 First, how well do you trust this mechanic. You drove the car there right? Now it doesn't work, so you give him more money? That is the stupid move. Buying the Subaru from 600 miles away sight unseen is not the wisest move, unless you are already an "expert" on them and can troubleshoot anythig. I bought my 89 turbo wagon from 2000 miles away. I Also showed up to get it, armed with tools, An 89 FSM, and a 100 pound box of parts. Sounds like he plugged in the test connectors and left them that way. I wouldn't trust him If he's not VERY familiar with Subarus, espescially the EA82T Oh yeah, and for surfing in Mexico, I think we all told you that the EA82T wa the one engine to stay away from(it's a great engine, but needs attention after years of neglect). You need to get an SPFI GL or loyale, or a legacy. Yeah, I know, you guys told me so too. *smacks forehead* Why did I get it then? Well, it sounded like a good car with all the right parts (engine, tranny, clutch, axles, etc...) replaced or rebuilt within the last few thousand miles. The engine had 5k after a rebuild on a brand-new block. It didn't sound like it needed attention after years of neglect. I figured I'd be safe from what I had researched to be the known mechanical issues for this engine. It sounded like a well-loved car from an honest seller. I thought all I needed to do was get the AC working. And as far as I can tell, it is mechanically very strong. It just has some electrical gremlins I need to hunt down. But yeah, I won't be taking it to mexico or anywhere else at this point. This is a lesson well-learned. And yeah, I drove it in there... But it was also on a day that it was doing something new (the bucking) and had left me cranking the starter at a stoplight for a few minutes for the very first time, so I figured anything was possible. As for the mechanic looking at it, I honestly don't know anything about any of the mechanics here. The shop has a good reputation, but I don't know them from Adam. I'm generally just a trusting person. He did seem familar with the subaru in that he knew right off that was the year they made all the changes to the electrical system, for whatever that's worth. About leaving the test connectors connected, will it not run in that state? It wasn't doing the 1-second pulses I read about being what was supposed to happen with the green connectors connected. I let him check it out, and he said everything points to the ECU, that all the codes that came up could have been symptomatic of a dying ECU. Does that sound right to anyone else? He says either that or some major wonkiness in the electrical system. How do I check for a bad ECU? I guess now that I'm done with my whining and stuff, I still really need some help to get this girl running again, now more than ever. I definitely made a mistake buying this car, but now I need to deal with it. Please, any input is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Get you're car back and tart going through the possibilities 1 by 1. Test the CTS for resistance. Check the Intake boot for any cracks Shop around for a Knock sensor. You're 87 should be a hotwire style MAF. And hence a single pole Knock sensor(later style) which are much easier to find. Could be poor contact somewhere in the harness too. Have faith, I've been there with a EA82T before. The damn thing had me so cornfued, and I thought it was an ECU too. Turned out it was a few corroded contacts and a loose rotor screw. Even if it is an ECU issue(which I doubt, they seldom go bad, but it does happen), that's not very hard to fix. I'll bet someone here on the board has one to sell. Or Search the forum for the threads cougar mentioned, where members where actually able to track down the blown capacitor on the board and fix the ECU itself for about 2 dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Thank you. I'll try to arrange to tow it back here tomorrow and start picking it apart. Wish my manual was here already, but anyway. You're probably right about it not being the ECU. It'll hopefully wind up being something simple. How would a dead ECU present itself, anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychsurf Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 By the way, what's the CTS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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