subynewbie Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Someone just gave me a 1986 GL Wagon, carb, 2W, 4Hi, 4Lo, 5speed. Since it has coolant in the oil, I'm assuming a head gasket or cracked head. I don't know the history of this problem, so whether it was badly overheated or not is unknown. Where do I start with troubleshooting the exact problem? I've done minor repairs on an '83 Sub but nothing this serious. Advice is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Do a compression test first, to determine if either of your diagnoses is correct. If compression is good, you would probably next want to pressure test the cooling system to see where the mixing is going on. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 +1 on the comp test first . . . if you're lucky it could be as simple as replacing intake manifold gaskets (which you'll find once you do the coolant system test, after the compression test) chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Alot of water???? If it's alot, or if when you add water, it goes straight to the oilpan..... Then you have a popped freeze plug in one of your heads. Remove the valve covers. There are 3 small freeze plugs in the head. Look for the one that popped out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 +1 on the comp test first . . . if you're lucky it could be as simple as replacing intake manifold gaskets (which you'll find once you do the coolant system test, after the compression test) chris Bad intake gaskets would not put water in the oil. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 with respect, yes it can. it will leak down into the compression chamer via the spark plug socket closest to the leak, and from there it's just a short dribble to the oilpan. it happend to me, exactly that way. it can also simply go from the intake manifold's water lines, into the head, right where the gaskets are, if the gasket fails correctly- just like a headgasket chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 with respect, yes it can. it will leak down into the compression chamer via the spark plug socket closest to the leak, and from there it's just a short dribble to the oilpan. it happend to me, exactly that way.it can also simply go from the intake manifold's water lines, into the head, right where the gaskets are, if the gasket fails correctly- just like a headgasket chris Dude, if water can leak past you're spark plug, you've got WAY more issues than a coolant leak. Meaning basically, NO, it can't. You misdiagnosed you're leak. There is absolutely NO WAY for coolant to get from the intake to the crankcase, at the gasket or otherwise. Not without leaking past the rings in the cylinder, which it would not do on a running engine, it *burn* and be expelled with the exhaust, or cause a hydro lock if it was a ton of liquid. But no Way in hell would it go from the intake to the crank case. The OP here either has a very bad headgasket leak (I doubt it) or he has a freeze plug in the head that's poped(likely). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Dude, if water can leak past you're spark plug, you've got WAY more issues than a coolant leak. Meaning basically, NO, it can't. You misdiagnosed you're leak. There is absolutely NO WAY for coolant to get from the intake to the crankcase, at the gasket or otherwise. Not without leaking past the rings in the cylinder, which it would not do on a running engine hookay, if you say so. i've only had it actually happen in a car exactly like the Op's car, but obviously what i actually witnessed with my own two eyes must be incorrect. what happens if the car sat for a week, month, etc . . . that water just sits there waiting, hoping someone will eventually crank the engine so it can be burned and expelled out the exhaust?! I can just see it now, those poor little water droplets, clinging on to the side of the cylinder for all they're worth (because otherwise they'd go thru the rings, and into the oil . . .) and what about option two, where you blow the gasket out between the water jacket and the air intake on the head? there's no way that water (with a dynamic viscosity of 1 mPa·s at room temp) might get thru the same rings that burn oil (let oil through, when it's minimum viscosity at 150*C is roughly 2.9-3.7 cP)?!!!! the OP never said the car was running, which is where you made your first mistake, ASSuming something. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocashrider Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 i had the intake gasket do the same thing on old subaru after i replaced the headgaskets so it can happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subynewbie Posted May 15, 2008 Author Share Posted May 15, 2008 Thanks for all the suggestions - including the debate over the intake manifold . I will leave the debatable issue for last and hope I don't have to go there. At one time I had a pressure tester for cooling system. If the compression test doesn't reveal the problem, the pressure tester is something I no longer have. I haven't seen one on the market for several years. Any suggestions about where to buy one? Would it be a good idea to drain it and put in fresh oil? My thinking is that an oil change might make the cranking-for-troubleshooting less of a strain on engine parts since pure oil (even for a little while if the leak isn't too severe) is lighter than the muddy mixture that's in the crankcase now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 i had the intake gasket do the same thing on old subaru after i replaced the headgaskets so it can happen Intake gaskets can leak into the combustion chamber. The Can leak Externally too. They cannot cause any signifigant amount of water in the crankcase. Externally leaked coolant CAN NOT Drip *down the spark plug hole* If that were true, road water splashed into the engine bay would do the same thing. I've had my engine wading in deep water before, and water CAN NOT leak past the spark plugs. Second, if it leaked to the combustion chamber, it would not be much, and it would not fall past the rings. Firstly, because the intake valve for that cylinder would have to be open. Assuming that the intake valve for that cylinder is open, and water did make it to the cylinder, it would pass the ringsBecause it's a flat motor!!! Gravity will pool the coolant at the bottom wall of the cylinder. No WAY is it going to leak sideways past the rings. Plus the intake is a high point in the system, the most you'd lose sitting is a a few ounces. It would sit in the cylinder until cranked over then *burn* Only the smallest amount of vapor could possibly enter the crankcase this way. Sorry if I am seeming blunt here. I just hate to see disinformation spread here. This line of thinking is going to send this poor SubieNewbie on a wild goose chase. His problem is either headgasket, or a popped freezeplug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Would it be a good idea to drain it and put in fresh oil? My thinking is that an oil change might make the cranking-for-troubleshooting less of a strain on engine parts since pure oil (even for a little while if the leak isn't too severe) is lighter than the muddy mixture that's in the crankcase now. Definately change the oil before cranking. But if you have popped a freeze plug, you're frewsh oil will quickly be contaminated again. So Please just do this first: Pull the valve covers. Add water to the cooling system to fill it. Watch both side heads to see if any water is leaking out of the freezeplugs in the heads. This happens fairly often. It's really easy to diagnos. And if it's not the problem you'd have ruled it out and can continue to the headgasket tests. If you end up doing headgaskets, you'll need those valve covers off anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Only the smallest amount of vapor could possibly enter the crankcase this way. Sorry if I am seeming blunt here. I just hate to see disinformation spread here. This line of thinking is going to send this poor SubieNewbie on a wild goose chase. His problem is either headgasket, or a popped freezeplug well, at least we've got you agreeing, somewhat blunt is good, disinformation is bad (but not happening here, it was a simple item to add to his checklist, note that i made it clear to check my idea after doing the comp test) and +1 on the diagnosis that it will be, and usually is, a headgasket issue (hopefully not any worse than that, popped freeze plug does not sound fun ) goodluck subynewbie, keep us updated!! and, Welcome to the USMB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 and +1 on the diagnosis that it will be, and usually is, a headgasket issue (hopefully not any worse than that, popped freeze plug does not sound fun ) QUOTE] Popped freeze plug is an easy fix compared to headgasket. Oil should be changed and Freeze plugs inspected before any compression test or any cranking at all is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Water would never leak through a spark plug hole, unless the plug is missing or wasn't installed properly. When my Toyota was losing it's head gasket, all the water was going into one cylinder- the oil stayed clean throughout. It got bad enough that to start it, you had to pull the plug on that cylinder and shoot the water out, or the engine would not crank. It could sit for a week like that- with water in the cylinder- and none ever made it into the oil. I know it's not a Subaru, but it's a vertical engine- gravity would be working in favor of any water getting into the crankcase, if it could get past the rings. Water in a Subaru cylinder doesn't even have that advantage. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 maybe mine was just "special" in any case, its good to read that freeze plugs aren't a huge deal, i've never had to deal with one before (doesn't really get cold enough 'round here) and even if it's a head gasket, with the lack of background on the car, this will be a good opportunity to do a bottom to top complete gasket and belt change, water pump, etc. not something you look forward too, but it's gotta be done eventually! chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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