EJ22s. Which to put in?

[Psyko]

I've got two engines, one is a '95 with 235k on it and the other is a '97 with 140k. The engine with 235k is currently in my Legacy and has never had troubles except for some slight oil burn it has recently developed. The one with 140k came from a Pull A Part, and appears to be taken care of.

 

I'm trying to figure out which engine to put in my Legacy before sending it down to Texas with my sister. I'm in WA, so I don't want things to break on her down there where I can't work on it for free.

 

Whichever engine I put back in will get new:

Water pump

Front main seal

Valve cover gasket things

Valve cover bolt gasket things

Cam shaft seals

Cam shaft o-rings (driver front and passenger rear of engine)

Intake gaskets

Thermostat

Timing belt (150k mile one from Subaru)

Timing belt tensioner (from here, any objections?)

Timing belt pulleys (from RockAuto, any I should steer clear of?)

And the used oil pump from 140k engine (recommended Subaru dealership guy said new wasn't necessary)

 

I ask specifically about the timing belt stuff because if I go with the '97 I really don't want the engine going all out kaboom on her. So, would you guys go with the proven, non-interference, '95 with 235k or the unknown, interference, '97 with 140k?

[idosubaru]

hands down i'd go with the 97 with a new ebay timing belt kit (just for the pulleys/tensioner) and subaru timing belt. 100,000 miles is a significant amount.

 

a compression or leak down test on the 97 would seal the deal. compression can be done out of the car with some rigging or a leak down can be done for sure.

 

if you do go with the 97 you might consider adjusting the valves too, should be cake with the engine out.

 

good luck!

[Reveeen]

I don't want things to break

 

I sure hope your luck is better than mine. Just this AM (while not wanting things to break, as I wish to buy a new scooter) my Legacy ate an alternator. Not before time (@325,000 miles), but, you know, "stuff happens".

 

Personally, I'd go "non-interference", if given the choice.

[johnceggleston]

i'd probably go with the lower miles/ newer 97, and replace anything that might break in the next 100k miles. 100k is a long time, even at 20k a year it's 5 years. that car will be 16 years old by then. she'll probably be ready for a different car, or a new timing belt plus and another 100k.

 

the 95 with 235k, may not make it another 100k.

[JT95]

If you're doing the same work to either engine, go with the 97. I'm fond of the 95 2.2, but it is getting in its grandaddy age at 235, when you consider you want some peace of mind for another driver.

[Psyko]

Okay guys, thanks for the advice. Looks like I'll be going with the '97 with this, this and Subaru belt (I'm glad I did some more digging on eBay).

 

Gary, I'd do compression and/or leak-down test(s), but I have no idea how and searching is only finding me threads with suggestions to do them. Also, I don't think I'd object to adjusting the valves, but I don't know what kind of adjustments you're talking about. Will I need to mess with springs?

 

Reveeen, funny you mention that. I have absolutely terrible luck, lately. lol

[Reveeen]

I have absolutely terrible luck, lately

 

Earlier this week I bought new struts, springs, brakes, tires, one strut mount, and rims, for my Legacy, but it just decided it needed a $200 alternator yesterday.

 

I had maybe, 2000 miles on a timing belt, idlers/adjuster job, and the adjuster bolt (the new one I got with the OEM adjuster) decided to break(?). (all Subaru parts, bought from a Subaru dealer) Given the choice here, "non-interference" wins every time, especially with a belt.

 

Not really bad luck, bad luck is when this stuff breaks, and you have to lie in 2' of snow to fix it. You have to remember too, this old car is getting "up there" in miles, it probably should be retired.

[Psyko]

I had maybe, 2000 miles on a timing belt, idlers/adjuster job, and the adjuster bolt (the new one I got with the OEM adjuster) decided to break(?). (all Subaru parts, bought from a Subaru dealer) Given the choice here, "non-interference" wins every time, especially with a belt.

I see your point. The big question here is whether I can trust the new belt, pulleys and tensioner more than the long block on a 235k EJ22. You'd put your trust in the block, which is the direction I leaned before posting. I don't know new gen well, so I wanted more opinions. Either way I go, it's a risk. The big question is what the bigger risk is, and I'll find out eventually because the other engine is going in my Brat.

 

The Legacy may have 235k, but it still feels like it has 100k. Even the original auto tranny (which I'm replacing with the 140k that was mated to the '97 engine) is doing great. Sadly, it won't go forever, but for now it's doing well enough to be a free car for a young single income family with a 1 year old daughter that currently drive an SUV with gas mileage in the low teens.

[johnceggleston]

The Legacy may have 235k, but it still feels like it has 100k.

 

there's no reason not to use the engine, i just wouldn't give it to my sister expecting it to last a lifetime. but since you have it, i'd use it. and since it's a non interferrence engine, you could in fact justify just doing the minimum, belt and noisey pulleys, unless you go off roading a lot. worst case, you do it again after a tow. but any number of things could go bad before the belt fails next time, including an auto accident.

 

of course, the added expense to do it all is not huge, especially considering what you plan to do with it. worst worst case, you have to find another 97 - 98 to drop in 50k miles from now.

 

IMO, if the 89 - 96 EJ22 is bullet proof then the 97 - 99 has on a flak jacket. just as good as long as the maintence is done on schedule.

[hankosolder2]

Okay guys, thanks for the advice. Looks like I'll be going with the '97 with this, this and Subaru belt (I'm glad I did some more digging on eBay).

 

Gary, I'd do compression and/or leak-down test(s), but I have no idea how and searching is only finding me threads with suggestions to do them. Also, I don't think I'd object to adjusting the valves, but I don't know what kind of adjustments you're talking about. Will I need to mess with springs?

 

Reveeen, funny you mention that. I have absolutely terrible luck, lately. lol

 

 

I hope it isn't bad form to answer a question addressed at Gary.

A compression test is performed by screwing a compression tester into the sparkplug holes (all other s. plugs are removed,) disabling the fuel supply (pull a fuse or all the injector connectors.) Crank the engine with the accellerator to the floor for several revolutions and record the number on the gauge. Check a haynes manual for specs, but all the numbers should be within a 10-15% spread of each other...IIRC.

 

Leakdown test: manually position the crankshaft of the engine so that cylinder 1 (for example) is at TDC. Attach a leakdown tester (pressure gauge + air compressor) to the sparkplug hole. I believe you read out a percentage reading on the gauge and it should be less than a certain %. (I've never done this, not owning one.) Repeat with each cylinder at TDC.

 

Valve clearance on a late EJ22 involves removing the valve covers, measuring the clearance with a feeler gauge and turning screw adjustera until the clearance is in spec. You will have to rotate the engine untill the cam lobes are in the right position for this adjustment. See a shop manual for the precise details and specs.

 

I hope I don't offend by saying this but, I'm a little surprised that someone contemplating engine and trans swaps is unfamiliar with these relatively simple procedures. Gotta know how to walk before you can run, you know? I'm sure you can follow a shop manual and get this car into good shape...nice that you're helping a single mom out.

 

Nathan

[Reveeen]

more than the long block on a 235k EJ22.

 

I am at 325,000 miles (not k), on a '91 EJ22T, and auto. @ 141,000 miles you own a "spring chicken".

[Psyko]

Thanks for the info Nathan. I certainly don't mind who gives it.

 

Both tests seem to be simple, but my '97 engine is sitting on the tailgate of a Brat with the front stripped bare (no timing belt, pulleys, pumps...). Looks like I'll be putting it back together, with new parts, and hoping I don't have to strip it back down again after the tests. Now, if my understanding is correct, the leak down is the more useful one to run? I obviously don't have a gauge for either one.

 

Valve adjustments sound a lot easier to do with the front torn down, but might as well wait until it's back together for that one as well. Just need exact specs and a feeler gauge now...

 

No offense taken. I've done a number of engine and tranny swaps, with my dad, growing up. Never was able to get on the net and never heard about these tests until late last year though. I consider my dad the best resource I have for EA81 stuff, but they aren't something he'd heard of and done (self taught with random info gleaning), so not something I knew of. While they're common place in your world, they sound like a luxury in mine.

 

And single income, not single mom, thank goodness. Brother-in-law is the single income.

 

Thanks again.

[hankosolder2]

Thanks for the info Nathan. I certainly don't mind who gives it.

 

Both tests seem to be simple, but my '97 engine is sitting on the tailgate of a Brat with the front stripped bare (no timing belt, pulleys, pumps...). Looks like I'll be putting it back together, with new parts, and hoping I don't have to strip it back down again after the tests. Now, if my understanding is correct, the leak down is the more useful one to run? I obviously don't have a gauge for either one.

 

Valve adjustments sound a lot easier to do with the front torn down, but might as well wait until it's back together for that one as well. Just need exact specs and a feeler gauge now...

 

No offense taken. I've done a number of engine and tranny swaps, with my dad, growing up. Never was able to get on the net and never heard about these tests until late last year though. I consider my dad the best resource I have for EA81 stuff, but they aren't something he'd heard of and done (self taught with random info gleaning), so not something I knew of. While they're common place in your world, they sound like a luxury in mine.

 

And single income, not single mom, thank goodness. Brother-in-law is the single income.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

You don't need to tear down the front of the engine to do a valve clearance adjustment. At most (starting with a fully assembled engine) you'll need to remove the outboard front timing belt covers (3X 10mm bolts on each side cover) so you can see the camshaft positions (and the valve covers.) It will be easier to do out of the car. Also, if the valve clearances check OK (or slightly loose) it's a sign that the valves are probably in good health. A tight clearance is indicative of valve/valve seat wear.

 

A leak down test is considered more accurate than a compression test. Seeing as the engine is out of a car, I don't see how you can easily spin the engine on the starter motor to do a compression test! So a leakdown test might be your best bet. I think the testers can be kind of expensive though...rent one?? It's also probably possible to make one.

 

Sorry about the single income/single mom mixup! I was reading quickly.

 

Nathan

[Psyko]

My bad, didn't mean the valve adjustments would be easier with the front torn down than with it together. Just meant that it would be easier to do that, with the front torn apart, than it would be to do the compression tests, with the front torn apart.

 

No harm done with the mixup.

 

Another couple questions, that go down a different alley. What do you guys do to remove the crank seals and front main seal? How much goop do you use on the oil pump and then how tightly do you crank it down?

[hankosolder2]

My bad, didn't mean the valve adjustments would be easier with the front torn down than with it together. Just meant that it would be easier to do that, with the front torn apart, than it would be to do the compression tests, with the front torn apart.

 

No harm done with the mixup.

 

Another couple questions, that go down a different alley. What do you guys do to remove the crank seals and front main seal? How much goop do you use on the oil pump and then how tightly do you crank it down?

 

I assume when you say "crank seals and front main seal" you meant cam seals and front main seal? You can use a seal puller (there are two styles I've seen-- a crooked hook type and a sort of T shaped device.) The cheap way is to pierce the seal with an icepick or similar tool and lever it out, taking great care not to scratch the cam/crank shafts. Also, the cam seals are mounted in aluminum holders (3X 10mm bolts IIRC) with O-rings behind them. Change those O rings too...if you pull the entire cam seal holder off, I think you can knock the seal out from behind. It's been a while, so I might be wrong on that. I remember tapping on the seal holders quite a bit to loosen them.

 

I generally have not futzed with oil pumps, but it's advised to check the tightness of the screws on the backing plate. I've never done it. I think Permatex Ultra Grey (as a sub for Titebond, I think) used somewhat sparingly is the suggested sealant for most oil applications in the subie.

 

Nathan

[idosubaru]

a light but continuous coat of anaerobic sealant (or permatex as a substitute) for the oil pump. tighten any of the oil pump backing plate bolts that might have loosened, add lock tite to them if you like. tighten the oil pump to block bolts to whatever the FSM says.

 

for engines out of the car i drill a tiny pilot hole, then use a self-tapping sheet metal screw to pull seals on subarus. be wary of damage .

 

have fun!

[Psyko]

I assume when you say "crank seals and front main seal" you meant cam seals and front main seal?

I did mean cam seals, sorry. Mind jumped ahead to the front main while was still typing, evidently. The right side seal is in a removable aluminum holder, with o-ring I'm replacing, and the main is in the oil pump, so those I can get from behind. The left side has the o-ring on the back of the engine though (I'm replacing it), so that cam seal has to be pulled.

 

Thanks for all the know how you guys.

[Psyko]

Went with the 235k. There seems to be enough faith in it to put my mind at ease. Plus, I don't want to deal with getting exhaust made up for the '97 (nor do I want to pay for it). Also, this way I don't have to do any engine swapping.

 

I'm almost done. Just need to figure out what goop you put on the PCV valve when installing and replace the valve cover gaskets.

 

...Oh and I think I stripped the threads on one of the timing belt pulleys. :-\ It was the last one I put it, and before I got it even close to as tight as any of the others, it got easy. Putting the other engine together wouldn't take me long since I've already done the seals, but I don't think I can find exhaust for it in time and swapping the engine would take the better part of a day (I only have a couple full days this weekend plus whatever time I can manage during the next couple of weeks days), so I think I've got to fix the stripped threads. What's your guys opinions on Helicoil use in such an important area and anything I should keep in mind?

[idosubaru]

briggs - got you covered on the stripped bolt. there's a very easy fix. get a longer bolt. the holes are deeper than the stock bolts threads. i always clean the threads first with a tap and do the same thing with the new bolt, chase the threads with a die. of course you need the get the length just right...if it's too long it'll bottom out. if you have a bolt that's too long you can cut it but you will have to chase the threads then, the cut will roughen them up. or you can space the bolt out with washers under the head - depending how it's mounted and which pulley it is.

 

as for the PCV valve - just thread it in - they don't get any sealant on the threads. you'll notice the old one is clean when you pulled it out....or dirty from oil/grit maybe!

[Psyko]

briggs - got you covered on the stripped bolt. there's a very easy fix. get a longer bolt.

 

as for the PCV valve - just thread it in - they don't get any sealant on the threads. you'll notice the old one is clean when you pulled it out....or dirty from oil/grit maybe!

Thanks. It's so easy to overthink things.

 

The old PCV is so nasty you can't tells heads from tails on it. lol

[idosubaru]

just in case:

 

aside from the longer bolt you can helicoil those threads. need to gain access or use a right angle drill. not any right angle drill will work though, needs to be shallow enough to fit between the front and engine of course (i've seen some big honkers that won't fit). what i do is get a right angle drill and hold the drill bit in something steady and wail it with a hammer to break it and shorten the bit. otherwise the bit will be too long to fit down there.

 

or the non drilling method would be to try and use slightly larger, probably non-metric threaded, bolts (depending which pulley and how it's mounted).

[Psyko]

or the non drilling method would be to try and use slightly larger, probably non-metric threaded, bolts (depending which pulley and how it's mounted).

Can you clarify this a bit?

 

Pully is the bottom smooth idler pulley. Not the "geared" one that bolts into the water pump.

[idosubaru]

i wouldn't recommend this here personally. i would try it, but without experience i wouldn't suggest anyone else doing it unless they've done something similar before. being the pulley you're talking about a larger diameter bolt probably won't even fit through the pulley anyway so this probably isn't an option.

 

but if you did do it - try to to find a bolt that is just slightly larger in diameter. some of the english sizes are a hair bigger or use the next size up metric bolt.

 

that takes one of the larger bolts then, i'm surprised in my experience it's 5 to 1 usually the smaller bolts that strip. it's harder to find those larger bolts in as many various lengths, the smaller ones are easier. i think that's a 10x1.25 thread if you need to go buy some of different lengths. just take it to lowes with you and buy a couple (i know the thread pitch is 1.25, diameter i might be off on). anyway, buy a couple of different lengths and see which works. you should be able to stick a tooth pick, straw or something down the hole to get an idea of how deep it is.

 

another test - thread the bolt into the hole without the pulley in place. this will tell you two things - how deep it is and it might give you and indication if the bolt will tighten or not....if you want to chance it that is!!!

 

sorry to be so wordy, it's just one of those things you try anything you can think of and make it work....hard to verbalize or give a step-by-step.

 

good luck!

[Psyko]

The hole is actually quite deep, but I don't think it's threaded all the way back. So, the bolt is having to cut some new grooves for itself. That's fine, except I don't know what it looks like in there now. I don't know how good of a grip it has on anything. Considering I never, ever, ever, want this bolt to come back out again (this pulley is a lifer), what would you say to putting some high-temp Loctite or JB Weld junk in there? I'd rather have to swap engines later then have this pulley pull out on my sister.

[idosubaru]

yeah, go for a bit of lock tite, but i would'nt use the "permanent" stuff no matter how positive you are that it'll never come off again.

 

JB weld is not the ticket.

 

you didn't have a tap to create new threads and clean it out do you? if you cut new threads with the bolt that should be fine, just work it in and out and clean the bolt/threads off really good. torque it to spec's and see if it goes to the torque value you need it. if it does you're golden.

 

sounds like it'll be fine to me.