McDave Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 I started to change the axle seals in the transaxle of my '93 Loyale 3sp auto, but it's not those seals that are leaking, it's actually coming from around the housing the seals are mounted in (see photo). The red arrow points to where the leak is. The green arrow points to a bolt with a locking tab that I assume keeps that ribbed seal holder from unscrewing. So the questions are: What is the "seal housing" actually called? Does it use an o-ring or what to seal to the case? Does this part also screw in and out to set ring gear pre-load and if so what is the procedure for setting it? And finally, does anyone have a blowup diagram of the transaxle so I can see what I need to order? Please help, the smell of gear oil burning on the cat really sux. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 are you sure this is differential gear oil leaking out? you should notice a loss of gear oil and need to replace it if it's that bad? i do not recall an o-ring there, just the seal. i think since that retaining plate is smaller than the seal so maybe you're just seeing oil seeping out from behind the retaining plate that is originating from the seal. if the oil seal holds, no oil should get to the retaining plate. YES - this does set the ring gear backlash, proceed cautiously. that retaining plate unscrews. rather than setting the backlash you will want to remove and replace the retaining plate into the exact same position that it is in right now. mark it and then count how many revolutions it takes to remove it. stay as exact as you can. reinstall the same number of revolutions and end at the mark. good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted June 20, 2008 Author Share Posted June 20, 2008 are you sure this is differential gear oil leaking out? you should notice a loss of gear oil and need to replace it if it's that bad? Yes, no doubt it's gear oil and the fluid level is dropping. i do not recall an o-ring there, just the seal. i think since that retaining plate is smaller than the seal so maybe you're just seeing oil seeping out from behind the retaining plate that is originating from the seal. if the oil seal holds, no oil should get to the retaining plate. I punched the rollpin out of the axle and slid the axle out enough to see it was completely dry around the axle stub. The grease is definitely leaking out where the red arrow points to. YES - this does set the ring gear backlash, proceed cautiously. that retaining plate unscrews. rather than setting the backlash you will want to remove and replace the retaining plate into the exact same position that it is in right now. mark it and then count how many revolutions it takes to remove it. stay as exact as you can. reinstall the same number of revolutions and end at the mark. I'll probably mark it then count how many notches it takes to hand tighten it, then take it apart. When going back together hand tighten it again then back off the same number of notches. (unless they're already tight, then I'll try it your way) I have another post in this forum where I felt that I have too much backlash in the ring and pinion anyway. This may be related. Sure would be good to know the procedure for setting (and sealing) it. But I do thank you for your help! good luck! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 I skimmed my FSM and there is an oring under that retaining plate. I'll probably mark it then count how many notches it takes to hand tighten it, then take it apart. When going back together hand tighten it again then back off the same number of notches. (unless they're already tight, then I'll try it your way)if you end up at the same place, what's the point of adding the extra step? i don't believe it should hand tigthen though, the ones i've messed with were rather tight. don't know if that's age related or what though. I have another post in this forum where I felt that I have too much backlash in the ring and pinion anyway. This may be related. Sure would be good to know the procedure for setting (and sealing) it. But I do thank you for your help!the FSM is what you want then. the problem is this procedure i don't think is meant to be done on the car. once it's set, it should stay there barring disassembly. if there are issues, it's probably caused by something and not a situation that just requires an adjustment. whatever caused it will create problems, front diff issues i've seen get worse. maybe what you're feeling is caused by something else? here's what the FSM says for the EA82/4EAT front diff which i imagine to be the same or similar to the 3AT. (5) Tighten the LH retainer until contactd is felt while rotating the shaft. Then loosen the RH retainer. Keep tightening the LH retainer and loosening the RH retainer until the pinion shaft can no longer be turned. This is the "zero" state. (6) After the "zero" state is established, back off the LH retainer 3 notches and secure it with the locking tab. Then back off the RH retainer and retighten until it stops. Repeat this procedure several times. Tighten the RH retainer 1 3/4 notches further. This sets the preload. Finally secure the retainer with its locking tab. Turning the retainer by one tooth changes the backlash about 0.05mm (0.0020 inches) (7) Turn the drive pinion several rotations and check to see if the backlash is within standard value. Backlash: 0.13 - 0.18 mm (0.0051 - 0.0071 inches) After confirming that the backlash is correct, check the tooth contact. Then it goes into an elaborate break down including pictures of teeth contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted June 20, 2008 Author Share Posted June 20, 2008 I skimmed my FSM and there is an oring under that retaining plate. Yep, I found it/them while looking for a new modulator valve. Here's the link: http://www2.partstrain.com/store/?N=11741+1719+4294967011+11921+8001 if you end up at the same place, what's the point of adding the extra step? i don't believe it should hand tigthen though, the ones i've messed with were rather tight. don't know if that's age related or what though. Because when unscrewing something like that it can be off before you realize it and throw your count off. Then getting it started at the same spot can be tricky. Taking up slack and returning to that same point is more accurate, unless they're already tight like you say. Just seems to work out better for me that way. YMMV the FSM is what you want then. I've been looking. Our Motor shop manuals have been a big disappointment. I think the Haynes that came with the car is better than these Motor's! the problem is this procedure i don't think is meant to be done on the car. once it's set, it should stay there barring disassembly. if there are issues, it's probably caused by something and not a situation that just requires an adjustment. whatever caused it will create problems, front diff issues i've seen get worse. maybe what you're feeling is caused by something else? Ok, thanks for the warning. I'll play it by ear/feel. here's what the FSM says for the EA82/4EAT front diff which i imagine to be the same or similar to the 3AT. (5) Tighten the LH retainer until contactd is felt while rotating the shaft. Then loosen the RH retainer. Keep tightening the LH retainer and loosening the RH retainer until the pinion shaft can no longer be turned. This is the "zero" state. (6) After the "zero" state is established, back off the LH retainer 3 notches and secure it with the locking tab. Then back off the RH retainer and retighten until it stops. Repeat this procedure several times. Tighten the RH retainer 1 3/4 notches further. This sets the preload. Finally secure the retainer with its locking tab. Turning the retainer by one tooth changes the backlash about 0.05mm (0.0020 inches) (7) Turn the drive pinion several rotations and check to see if the backlash is within standard value. Backlash: 0.13 - 0.18 mm (0.0051 - 0.0071 inches) After confirming that the backlash is correct, check the tooth contact. Then it goes into an elaborate break down including pictures of teeth contact. Perfect! Even if I decide not to try to change the backlash, at least I now know the preload procedure between the two sides. Thank you very much! I'm confident I can solve this stinking mess now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted June 20, 2008 Author Share Posted June 20, 2008 By the way, here's a glamour shot of the little darling. She's been drawing oohs and aahs wherever she goes. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 (5) Tighten the LH retainer until contactd is felt while rotating the shaft. Then loosen the RH retainer. Keep tightening the LH retainer and loosening the RH retainer until the pinion shaft can no longer be turned. This is the "zero" state. (6) After the "zero" state is established, back off the LH retainer 3 notches and secure it with the locking tab. Then back off the RH retainer and retighten until it stops. Repeat this procedure several times. Tighten the RH retainer 1 3/4 notches further. This sets the preload. Finally secure the retainer with its locking tab. Turning the retainer by one tooth changes the backlash about 0.05mm (0.0020 inches) (7) Turn the drive pinion several rotations and check to see if the backlash is within standard value. Backlash: 0.13 - 0.18 mm (0.0051 - 0.0071 inches) After confirming that the backlash is correct, check the tooth contact. Then it goes into an elaborate break down including pictures of teeth contact. The problem with following that procedure is that it's intended for a bench assembly and you are supposed to be looking at the actual R&P gear teeth and using a special grease to see the gear teeth pattern. Also there is no way to check that the backlash is within spec with it fully assembled an in the car. So you can't actually verify that the procedure worked. Counting turns and marking both a start and end location with a punch is much better. Just put it back where you found it - that's all you can do. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 The problem with following that procedure is that it's intended for a bench assembly and you are supposed to be looking at the actual R&P gear teeth and using a special grease to see the gear teeth pattern. Also there is no way to check that the backlash is within spec with it fully assembled an in the car. So you can't actually verify that the procedure worked. Counting turns and marking both a start and end location with a punch is much better. Just put it back where you found it - that's all you can do. GD Thanks GD, that's basically what I plan to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 The problem with following that procedure is that it's intended for a bench assembly and you are supposed to be looking at the actual R&P gear teeth and using a special grease to see the gear teeth pattern.thanks for verifying, it's better to hear from more people than just me that's for sure! i was hoping that point wasn't missed. the problem is this procedure i don't think is meant to be done on the car. once it's set, it should stay there barring disassembly.i mentioned the teeth contact too - there's 1+ pages of instructions and diagrams for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 thanks for verifying, it's better to hear from more people than just me that's for sure! i was hoping that point wasn't missed. i mentioned the teeth contact too - there's 1+ pages of instructions and diagrams for that. Don't worry guys, while I work on cars for a living, this one is my own so I sure don't want to mess it up! If I make any changes from where they are set now, it will be to the right side to make sure that it gets that extra 1 3/4 notch preload to the o-ring seals. I suspect that's where the problem lies now. Stay tuned (next week)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Don't worry guys, while I work on cars for a living, this one is my own so I sure don't want to mess it up! more worry on my end, i'm no front diff expert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 more worry on my end, i'm no front diff expert! I think we're both about to learn something! (wish I had the special tool that must exist for those plates) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I think we're both about to learn something! (wish I had the special tool that must exist for those plates) It's a T-handle deal that obviously can't put a lot of torque down - no provision for a socket wrench either. If you have any resistance to turning them it will be from age and grime, not because they are tight per-se. SOA original part number 399780111... looks to be discontinued. It looks like this, but I don't know if the 4EAT version (499787000) would fit. You could call kent-moore and find out. They sell the the general public so if there is still a tool made you can get it through them. http://subaru.spx.com/detail.asp?partid=499787000 GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 Thanks GD. I've got an assortment of truck axle nut sockets that look similar that should also fit over the axle stub. Or maybe even an a/c clutch spanner wrench. I'll figure something out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 should be able to get it started with a punch type of tool. have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 Success! Since I had the car up on stands this morning to do some exhaust work, I decided to check out the right side preload. With the bolt and locking tab off, the retainer plate was loose as a goose! I was able to hand tighten it a half notch, then went ahead and used a brass punch on one of the fins to tighten it another 1 1/2 notch to where the lock tab would line up again. I checked it after getting home and the left side was dry, and the right (the side that leaked the worst) had just a tiny bit of gear oil below the retainer. I'm betting that was just residual from the groove. If not I'll go ahead and put the new seals in when they arrive next week. It smells better already! Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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