smogging my spfi hatch in ca - now with GOOD NEWS!

[mountaingoatgruff]

i finally found someone that would hook my car up to the sniffer without automatically failing me upon visual inspection and it still failed!

 

here's the readout...

 

15mph@1849rpm:

%co2 - 14.2

%02 - 0.7

ppm hc - max: 144 measured: 219

%co - max: 0.88 measured: 0.56

ppm no - max: 1175 measured: 2749

 

25mph@2888rpm:

%co2 - 15.1

%02 - 0.1

ppm hc - max: 120 measured: 66

%co - max: 0.68 measured: 0.22

ppm no - max: 1005 measured: 968

 

visual inspection report shows the following anticipated remarks:

 

air injection - missing

vac lines, carb/fuel injection, other emissions components - modified

ignition timing: 20 btdc - fail

 

i knew i'd fail visual but i'm suprised by the results of the sniffer test. the cat was new when i bought the car (about 7 months ago) and everything else is either new/rebuilt/cleaned. all tune up stuff and o2 sensor are new, oil has 200miles on it.

 

i've got an appointment with a ref on wed to take care of the visual, but i need to figure out why my hc and no are too high in low rpm test. any help is appreciated!

[misledxcracker]

Talk to supernova... he's smogged his SPFI hatch. Yes, it WILL pass smog in California, because it's been done before.

 

Why yours is failing? Heck, I dont know... first time I fail I take a trip to Arizona and well

[mountaingoatgruff]

Talk to supernova... he's smogged his SPFI hatch. Yes, it WILL pass smog in California, because it's been done before.

 

Why yours is failing? Heck, I dont know... first time I fail I take a trip to Arizona and well

 

i'm sure it will pass after i get done jumping through these hoops, i just don't know how to interpret the data from the sniffer to see what i need to fix. the ref should give me a sticker to show my new spfi specs and then i'll be able to pass a visual inspection. like i said, i've got an appt with the ref on wed so i just need to find out what i need to fix to bring my hc and no down by then so i can hit up the smog shop on the way home from there.

 

i was thinking about it and i haven't readjusted my valves or changed my oil since i did my hg's, maybe that has something to do with it...? i'll probably do that tomorrow morning as well as replace my leaking pressure sending unit (new one's on the bench next to the new oil/filter:rolleyes:).

 

i'm just waiting for someone to say i failed cuz the oil from my k&n has my maf all gunked up...

[s'ko]

is everything else stock?

 

I failed smog the first time b/c I had tires that were too big. It made the engine lug. went down to stock sized tires and I was good to go.

 

I think for the HC you can try some acetone. The NO levels might go down as well b/c the combustion temp will go down.

 

http://www.smogsearch.com/index.php?page=faq

 

BW

[McDave]

Since your NO(X) is also very high I would say your EGR valve is not opening at part throttle (1849 rpm) and as a result you are getting some pre-ignition (you may not be able to hear it) and thus your HC goes up too.

 

Here's a real good article detailing the relationship between the 5 measured gasses:

http://www.automotiveu.com/zack5gas.htm

 

Bottom line: Get those vacuum lines routed correctly. Make sure you have vacuum to the egr solenoid so when the ecm commands it, it will pass the vacuum to the egr valve.

 

Also make sure the egr valve will open and when it does, that it will try to stall an idling engine. To test it, start the car and apply manifold vacuum directly to the egr valve. You can do that with a hand vacuum pump or by unplugging one of the other vacuum lines temporarily and plugging it straight into the egr valve. If it doesn't stumble, reach under the valve to see if the vacuum is lifting the plunger up. If it's not then the valve is bad. If it does lift it up and doesn't idle rough or stall, then the egr passages are plugged up. Remove the egr valve to clean them up.

 

In conclusion, if the egr soleniod is getting vacuum, and the soleniod passes the vacuum to the egr valve when the ecm commands it (while driving down the road), and the egr valve gets that vacuum and opens up to clean passages, then your emissions test should pass.

 

Good luck!

 

PS You could still fail on visual due to the missing air injection, so you might want to get an estimate to replace those parts to show the inspector. Assuming they are still available they may cost too much to replace and he can grant you a wavier... if your state is anything like mine.

[GeneralDisorder]

First - SPFI's don't have air injection - never did, and the ref will correct that for you.

 

EGR does nothing at idle - so don't worry about that.

 

Your problem sounds like a classic "miss" at idle. Lots and lots of unburned fuel is getting through because you have a cylinder or cylinders that are simply not firing at idle. This is almost always a vacuum leak - remember that on SPFI's the crankcase IS part of the manifold vacuum. You make sure that the dipstick tube is sealing? EA82's have an o-ring but EA81's do not - you may need a new stick or to add an o-ring, etc. The engine has to be TIGHT or you WILL have idle misses. Valve cover gaskets, oil pan gasket, oil fill tube, oil dipstick tube, etc, etc. These are all places for potential vacuum leaks that will cause a lean condition and a corresponding random cylinder misfire.

 

*edit* - I missed the 1800 RPM "15 MPH" part - we don't do that up here. It could be partially EGR related but I also think you may still have a miss even at part throttle.

 

GD

[McDave]

EGR does nothing at idle - so don't worry about that.

 

Your problem sounds like a classic "miss" at idle. Lots and lots of unburned fuel is getting through because you have a cylinder or cylinders that are simply not firing at idle. This is almost always a vacuum leak - remember that on SPFI's the crankcase IS part of the manifold vacuum. You make sure that the dipstick tube is sealing? EA82's have an o-ring but EA81's do not - you may need a new stick or to add an o-ring, etc. The engine has to be TIGHT or you WILL have idle misses. Valve cover gaskets, oil pan gasket, oil fill tube, oil dipstick tube, etc, etc. These are all places for potential vacuum leaks that will cause a lean condition and a corresponding random cylinder misfire.

 

GD

 

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. You can test the egr passages by applying vacuum at an idle. If the engine stalls or tries to, then the passages are clear, and the valve is opening.

 

Egr comes on at part throttle, right where he is failing: 1849 rpm. Egr is solely responsible for high NO (NOX). Also, if there is no egr at part throttle, chances are it's getting pre-ignition which will cause high HC.

[GeneralDisorder]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. You can test the egr passages by applying vacuum at an idle. If the engine stalls or tries to, then the passages are clear.

 

Yes - I understand that.

 

Egr comes on at part throttle, right where he is failing: 1849 rpm. Egr is solely responsible for high NO (NOX). Also, if there is no egr at part throttle, chances are it's getting pre-ignition which will cause high HC.

 

Yes - you are correct. I missed the RPM thing. Up here in OR we test idle and cruise only - not the 15 MPH thing. So when quickly reading his rest results I incorrectly assumed the first set was idle, not 1800 RPM.

 

GD

[McDave]

Yes - I understand that.

 

 

 

Yes - you are correct. I missed the RPM thing. Up here in OR we test idle and cruise only - not the 15 MPH thing. So when quickly reading his rest results I incorrectly assumed the first set was idle, not 1800 RPM.

 

GD

 

I hear ya. It's idle and 2500 rpm here. I wonder if his is actually idling at 1849?

[GeneralDisorder]

I hear ya. It's idle and 2500 rpm here. I wonder if his is actually idling at 1849?

 

The SPFI wouldn't do that without throwing a code, and I'm pretty sure he knows better than that - it was a "15 MPH" test after all....

 

GD

[McDave]

The SPFI wouldn't do that without throwing a code, and I'm pretty sure he knows better than that - it was a "15 MPH" test after all....

 

GD

Ah, right you are.

[mountaingoatgruff]

first off, i thoroughly cleaned everything when i did the spfi swap. manifold, egr, iacv, tb, dist, fuel pump... i even cleaned the jy's paint pen marks off my ecu! i bead blasted the egr passages of the manifold and made damn sure there was no glass in there before i painted it.

 

i cleaned the egr as well as i could and verified it's operation by "manually" applying vac (i stuck a hose on there and sucked) and it opened, but it was quite difficult to get it to move far. i figured that might be normal and forgot about it.

 

second, i know the egr soledoid is getting vac cuz i checked that when i was getting that code for the faulty solenoid. every inch of vac, pcv, coolant and rubber fuel line is brand new, so there's no cracks, leaks or clogs there. also, i have oem gaskets on the egr, intake man, tb base and others so i'd hope there's no leaks there.

 

based on your inputs, i think it may be one or two things:

 

1. the oil dipstick is missing the pull handle and has a split down the rubber so that may be a small vac leak. i was planning on replacing it but i can never remember when i'm at the jy (i was there on sunday, too:banghead:). also, the hvac controls are really weak so i think i'll cap that vac port to eliminate any possible leaks in there until i finish "remodeling" my interior.

 

2. i remember from when i was checking things while fixing the code 34 issue that the egr is closed at idle (cold & warm), opens when i goose the throttle, and closes right back up as rpm's come down. also, it doesn't seem to open up very much. so, should it be open at warm idle and how much should it open when i goose the throttle? i know its not a vac supply issue so i may be looking at replacing the egr.

 

GD, how would i test for a miss at idle or low rpm? i'm leaning toward thinking this is what it is because it still misses under heavy acceleration when its cold. if i really lay into it right after starting and taking off with the engine still cold it misses - the more i let into it, the more it misses. once its warm it goes away (or becomes unnoticeable) even right after startup.

 

and the basics (almost forgot):

idles at 1500-2000 cold, around 750 warm

timing is at 20 deg btdc

has plenty of power/torque (for what it is )

mileage looks to be in the low 30's

everything besides the spfi, k&n 3" conical air filter and anti-obama/mccain sticker is stock

[McDave]

 

i cleaned the egr as well as i could and verified it's operation by "manually" applying vac (i stuck a hose on there and sucked) and it opened, but it was quite difficult to get it to move far. i figured that might be normal and forgot about it.

 

second, i know the egr soledoid is getting vac cuz i checked that when i was getting that code for the faulty solenoid. every inch of vac, pcv, coolant and rubber fuel line is brand new, so there's no cracks, leaks or clogs there. also, i have oem gaskets on the egr, intake man, tb base and others so i'd hope there's no leaks there.

 

snip

 

2. i remember from when i was checking things while fixing the code 34 issue that the egr is closed at idle (cold & warm), opens when i goose the throttle, and closes right back up as rpm's come down. also, it doesn't seem to open up very much. so, should it be open at warm idle and how much should it open when i goose the throttle? i know its not a vac supply issue so i may be looking at replacing the egr.

 

 

Ok good, it's getting vacuum and opening only at part throttle like it's supposed to. Now all you need to do is verify that it's flowing and actually having an effect. Temporarily apply vacuum to the valve at an idle. The engine should run rough and maybe even stall. If it does your emissions problem is likely not egr related. Put the original vacuum hose back on and look elsewhere for the cause of your missing.

 

Note: You can reach under the valve and manually lift the diaphragm up to accomplish nearly the same thing, but that won't tell you if the diaphragm is moving enough under vacuum power to do any good.

[mountaingoatgruff]

Ok good, it's getting vacuum and opening only at part throttle like it's supposed to. Now all you need to do is verify that it's flowing and actually having an effect. Temporarily apply vacuum to the valve at an idle. The engine should run rough and maybe even stall. If it does your emissions problem is likely not egr related. Put the original vacuum hose back on and look elsewhere for the cause of your missing.

 

i tested the functionality of the egr valve and its definitely capable of working. i hooked a hose to it, plugging the one i pulled off course, and the slightest vacuum stalled the engine. i could easily see the diapragm move.

 

then i reconnected the egr solenoid, sat on the floor in front of the car with a flashlight and played with the throttle and found that the egr is closed at idle, opens and quickly closes when you goose the throttle, but if you slowly increase the rpm's it stays open at least to as far as i'm willing to rev it to - maybe 4k or just over - and closes once you let off. if you slowly rev it up and then slowly go up and down with the rpm's within a limited range the diaphragm opens in an amount directly relative to engine rpm's. so all that seems normal to me.

 

this is the only thing that made no sense to me, i pulled off the egr vac line again, then hooked a line straight from the tb vac port supplying the egr solenoid the the egr valve itself. nothing happened. so i pulled the hose off the tb and sucked lightly, the engine immediately stalled. i restarted it then thought "why isn't the vac leak on the tb making any difference?" i put the hose on the tb vac port and blew air in and nothing changed, idle was normal whether i left the port open, applied vac to the port or blew air into the port.

 

maybe at idle there's not enough airflow there to make a difference, the holes in the throat of the tb are pretty small. there's enough vac there at off-idle rpm's to open the egr, but maybe not enough to open it enough at just off idle, like at 1800rpm's. should i have used a direct manifold vac port?

 

i changed the oil/filter/pressure sending unit. it now has a niehoff press sender and it seems like this unit is much less responsive to pressure fluctuations and it takes twice as long for the needle to come up after starting. i didn't get to the valves today, i gotta go put my vac lines back together so it can carry me to work in an hour... still wondering about the miss...

[McDave]

 

this is the only thing that made no sense to me, i pulled off the egr vac line again, then hooked a line straight from the tb vac port supplying the egr solenoid the the egr valve itself. nothing happened. so i pulled the hose off the tb and sucked lightly, the engine immediately stalled. i restarted it then thought "why isn't the vac leak on the tb making any difference?" i put the hose on the tb vac port and blew air in and nothing changed, idle was normal whether i left the port open, applied vac to the port or blew air into the port.

 

 

Normal. That particular vacuum hose is hooked up to "ported" vacuum. The vacuum port inside the carb is just above the throttle plate and doesn't start drawing vacuum until you open the throttle.

 

Some cars use ported vacuum, others use direct manifold vacuum but the soleniod doesn't allow vacuum to flow to the valve at idle otherwise it would stall, as you saw for yourself.

 

So yes, your egr system likely is not the cause of your test failure. (sorry about the goose chase ). On to the miss!

[mountaingoatgruff]

here's the bar ref's verdict:

 

he's going to let me smog my hatch as an 84 model with a 92 engine once i resolve my hc and nox issues and i have to meet 100% compliance to 92 emissions standards.

 

to meet 100% compliance i have to:

 

replace my 84 evap canister (which has 4 lines) with the 92 canister (which has 3 lines, no bowl vent - it can't just be capped off).

 

replace the 5/8" heater hose i used for the pcv and iacv with 5/8" emissions hose (a good idea anyhow cuz apparently heater hoses only resist glycol, not oil).

 

the "ecs" light must be clearly labeled with the words "check engine" or "service engine." having an operating light isn't enough for carb, it must be properly labeled.

 

so, for anyone wanting to do an spfi swap in ca this is what the bar and carb will expect of you before you can smog it as an engine change.

 

and for the record - the ref DID verify the presence AND operation of both the purge and egr solenoids as well as their vac line routings. he had me point them out then he pulled off the hoses and checked for vac. they have to be there and operating properly!

 

now, as far as the emissions are concerned... after all that testing i did yesterday to rule out my egr, the ref said its not opening and he's sure that's the problem (and the hc's concur). i don't know what the hell to do with it but replace it if it works just enough to look okay, but it fails a sniffer test....

[McDave]

now, as far as the emissions are concerned... after all that testing i did yesterday to rule out my egr, the ref said its not opening and he's sure that's the problem (and the hc's concur).

 

Hc and No. The high No was the main clue to the egr not working. There are other things that can cause high Hc, like a misfire.

 

 

i don't know what the hell to do with it but replace it if it works just enough to look okay, but it fails a sniffer test....

 

Ok lets take it from the top.

 

Edit: Do the following checks in order. If/when it passes the initial quick test, none of the other checks need to be done. After making repairs in the other steps, rerun the quick test.

 

Make sure the car is warmed up first since you shouldn't be getting egr on a cold motor (causes hesitation).

 

Start the car, put your finger under the egr valve and open(blip) the throttle a bit. You should feel the diaphragm raise up.

 

Now bring it back to an idle and manually lift the egr diaphragm with your finger. The engine should idle rough or stall.

 

If it did stall and the diaphragm did open at part throttle on a warm engine, then the egr is good. You passed! End of quick check.

 

If it didn't stall at an idle when you opened the valve manually, then the passages are clogged up. Clean out passages, rerun quick test.

 

If vacuum didn't open the valve at part throttle, then either the egr valve is bad, the solenoid is bad, the solenoid isn't getting vacuum, or the ecu isn't commanding the solenoid to open.

 

So, check to make sure that vacuum passes through the solenoid to the egr valve at part throttle on a warmed up engine.

 

If it's passing through the solenoid and not opening the valve, then the valve is bad. Replace the valve, rerun quick test.

 

If the vacuum isn't passing through the solenoid, check to make sure the solenoid is getting vacuum from the throttle body at part throttle.

 

If you have vacuum at the solenoid and the solenoid doesn't pass the vacuum through to the egr valve then either the solenoid is bad, or the ecu isn't commanding the solenoid to open. Time to break out the volt meter to check for the command.

 

Note: If the coolant sensor to the ecu is bad telling the ecu the engine is cold all the time, then the ecu never will command the egr solenoid to open.

 

Final note: Since this is a SPFI upgrade, make sure your wiring from the ecu to the egr solenoid and coolant sensor are right. Of course like GD said earlier, the ecu should be throwing codes if they aren't, but it's something that needs to be checked if you're not getting the command.

[GeneralDisorder]

replace my 84 evap canister (which has 4 lines) with the 92 canister (which has 3 lines, no bowl vent - it can't just be capped off).

Unfortunately the SPFI canister has 4 lines with one capped off. So not sure how you can explain that to the ref.... At least the one on my 91 has 4 lines with one capped and it's a stock 91 canister.

 

replace the 5/8" heater hose i used for the pcv and iacv with 5/8" emissions hose (a good idea anyhow cuz apparently heater hoses only resist glycol, not oil).

 

That's just BS. But whatever.

 

the "ecs" light must be clearly labeled with the words "check engine" or "service engine." having an operating light isn't enough for carb, it must be properly labeled.

Yeah - that makes sense. Dymo to the rescue. . I would have done it while he was standing there.

 

and for the record - the ref DID verify the presence AND operation of both the purge and egr solenoids as well as their vac line routings. he had me point them out then he pulled off the hoses and checked for vac. they have to be there and operating properly!

Insane.

 

now, as far as the emissions are concerned... after all that testing i did yesterday to rule out my egr, the ref said its not opening and he's sure that's the problem (and the hc's concur). i don't know what the hell to do with it but replace it if it works just enough to look okay, but it fails a sniffer test....

Clean it - soak the moving pin and such in carb cleaner to disolve the carbon. If that doesn't do it then replace it with a JY model.

 

GD

[mountaingoatgruff]

Hc and No. The high No was the main clue to the egr not working. There are other things that can cause high Hc, like a misfire.

 

 

 

 

Ok lets take it from the top. Make sure the car is warmed up first since you shouldn't be getting egr on a cold motor (causes hesitation). Start the car, put your finger under the egr valve and open the throttle a bit. You should feel the diaphragm raise up.

 

If the diaphragm opens at part throttle, then bring it back to an idle and manually lift the egr diaphragm with your finger. The engine should stall. If it did stall and did open at part throttle on a warm engine, then the egr is good.

 

If it didn't stall at an idle when you opened the valve manually, then the passages are clogged up.

 

If vacuum didn't open the valve at part throttle, then either the egr valve is bad, the solenoid is bad, the solenoid isn't getting vacuum, or the ecu isn't commanding the solenoid to open.

 

So, check to make sure that vacuum passes through the solenoid to the egr valve at part throttle on a warmed up engine.

 

If it's passing through the solenoid and not opening the valve, then the valve is bad.

 

If the vacuum isn't passing through the solenoid, check to make sure the solenoid is getting vacuum from the throttle body at part throttle.

 

If you have vacuum at the solenoid and the solenoid doesn't pass the vacuum through to the egr valve then either the solenoid is bad, or the ecu isn't commanding the solenoid to open. Time to break out the volt meter to check for the command.

 

Note: If the coolant sensor to the ecu is bad telling the ecu the engine is cold all the time, then the ecu never will command the egr solenoid to open.

 

Final note: Since this is a SPFI upgrade, make sure your wiring from the ecu to the egr solenoid and coolant sensor are right. Of course like GD said earlier, the ecu should be throwing codes if they aren't, but it's something that needs to be checked if you're not getting the command.

 

i have always warmed the car up before messing with the egr, so we're okay there.

 

when you say "part throttle" what rpm range are we talking? i can't see the tach from where i can see the egr, but i can have my lovely assistant hold the rpm's steady in specified increments. i just need to know just how much throttle it should take to open that sucker. i know for damn sure it opens, it just seems like it takes more engine speed/vac than it should.

 

i tested the ecu signal when i had my code 34 problems, as well as the solenoid. i'll retest both in the morning.

 

if the coolant sensor were bad not only would it likely throw a code, it would also exhibit other fairly obvious symptoms too, correct?

[mountaingoatgruff]

Unfortunately the SPFI canister has 4 lines with one capped off. So not sure how you can explain that to the ref.... At least the one on my 91 has 4 lines with one capped and it's a stock 91 canister.

 

my 92 canister has 5 lines with one capped off - there's one on the bottom. i need an spfi system schematic from a 92 fsm to verify this setup for the ref (the one i have is from an 89 fsm and only shows 3 lines, 92 fsm is probably the same exact schematic and the page doesn't show a date but this whole thing sailed over the boundary to ridiculous long ago...). i can cap and ignore the bottom one since he didn't look there this morning, but i'll have to have conclusive evidence that the fourth port should be plugged in factory configuration.

 

 

 

That's just BS. But whatever.

 

i called around and i can't even find 5/8" emissions hose. the girl at the parts counter of my closest dealership laughed when i asked her for 5/8" emissions hose. (i've been keeping them posted on this saga, too. they're all getting a kick out of the fact that anyone around here even works on gl's anymore). i think i'm going to try some different solvents to "erase" the print. even if i have to replace them after the test it'll be fine with me.

 

Yeah - that makes sense. Dymo to the rescue. . I would have done it while he was standing there.

 

i asked if i could just write it on the clear plastic or put a sticker on there...nope. has to be on the face of the tach right by the ecs light "so there can be no mistake."

 

Insane.

 

ca's bureaucracy has to cut medical care for children, seniors and handicapped persons cuz they can't balance their budget - but they can somehow afford to write and enforce some ridiculously detailed and obviously useless smog laws. they should vote themselves another raise for this.

 

i really didn't want to be an rump roast about the solenoid thing, but i guess i got offended cuz i really did know what i was talking about. i'm sure its hard for folks outside of ca to imagine their neighbors in ca are so definitively stupid, but things like this are exactly why my number one goal in life is to get my family the hell out of ca, and soon. i'll be damned if i'm gonna raise my son here!!

 

Clean it - soak the moving pin and such in carb cleaner to disolve the carbon. If that doesn't do it then replace it with a JY model.

 

GD

 

i'll be doing that in the morning, too. i've got a non-aerosol can of b-12 with my egr's name on it.

 

i'm guessing i'll be hard-pressed to find another federal egr in a local yard. he asked why i didn't have the egr temp sensor and i admitted that my 92 loyale donor was a co car. he said he'd let it go as long as my car is 100% compliant to the 92 loyale's factory federal setup. that means if i add an egr with the sensor i have to go full ca smog spec and wire the sensor in and replace the ecu with one that will use the sensor.

 

the ref is a decent guy. he told me where i could find the carb executive orders and explained to me the laws that are forcing him to make me do these things - it really seems like he let me slide on the things he could without jeopordizing his integrity/job. for instance, i've only gotten this far cuz he's putting it down as a motor swap, but i still have an ea81 and if he were really being pig-headed he'd make me come back with an ea82. also, i mentioned that my block is from an earlier gl (i soon found out that's a no-no in ca, you can retrofit a later engine, but you can never legally use an earlier engine) and he just kept saying "huh?" with a big grin till his assistant quietly let me in on the joke. he then joked that this whole thing would've been a breeze if i had brought him my car with a newer wrx engine. i don't want anyone to think the guy is responsible for this situation - its the ignorant bureaucrats in sacramento that have created this sad situation.

[McDave]

 

when you say "part throttle" what rpm range are we talking? i can't see the tach from where i can see the egr, but i can have my lovely assistant hold the rpm's steady in specified increments. i just need to know just how much throttle it should take to open that sucker. i know for damn sure it opens, it just seems like it takes more engine speed/vac than it should.

 

Any rpm above an idle. For your testing purposes just blip the throttle. For the smog test, if you really want to make sure it's opening at 15mph/1849 rpms, you could tee in a vacuum gauge just before the valve and drive the car 15 mph/1849 rpm and watch for the vacuum signal. I really wouldn't bother though. If it opens when you blip the throttle, it's working.

 

i tested the ecu signal when i had my code 34 problems, as well as the solenoid. i'll retest both in the morning.

 

I listed all the checks to be done in a certain order. If it passes the first checks you really don't need to go through all the rest (I should have made that clear so I went back and edited it). Here is the edited version...

 

Do the following checks in order. If/when it passes the initial quick test, none of the other checks need to be done. After making repairs in the other steps, rerun the quick test.

 

Make sure the car is warmed up first since you shouldn't be getting egr on a cold motor (causes hesitation).

 

Start the car, put your finger under the egr valve and open(blip) the throttle a bit. You should feel the diaphragm raise up.

 

Now bring it back to an idle and manually lift the egr diaphragm with your finger. The engine should idle rough or stall.

 

If it did stall and the diaphragm did open at part throttle on a warm engine, then the egr is good. You passed! End of quick check.

 

If it didn't stall at an idle when you opened the valve manually, then the passages are clogged up. Clean out passages, rerun quick test.

 

If vacuum didn't open the valve at part throttle, then either the egr valve is bad, the solenoid is bad, the solenoid isn't getting vacuum, or the ecu isn't commanding the solenoid to open.

 

So, check to make sure that vacuum passes through the solenoid to the egr valve at part throttle on a warmed up engine.

 

If it's passing through the solenoid and not opening the valve, then the valve is bad. Replace the valve, rerun quick test.

 

If the vacuum isn't passing through the solenoid, check to make sure the solenoid is getting vacuum from the throttle body at part throttle.

 

If you have vacuum at the solenoid and the solenoid doesn't pass the vacuum through to the egr valve then either the solenoid is bad, or the ecu isn't commanding the solenoid to open. Time to break out the volt meter to check for the command.

 

Note: If the coolant sensor to the ecu is bad telling the ecu the engine is cold all the time, then the ecu never will command the egr solenoid to open.

 

Final note: Since this is a SPFI upgrade, make sure your wiring from the ecu to the egr solenoid and coolant sensor are right. Of course like GD said earlier, the ecu should be throwing codes if they aren't, but it's something that needs to be checked if you're not getting the command.

 

 

if the coolant sensor were bad not only would it likely throw a code, it would also exhibit other fairly obvious symptoms too, correct?

 

These systems seem to run so lean it would probably run better! But yeah, you only need to check that if the ecu isn't commanding egr flow.

[McDave]

my 92 canister has 5 lines with one capped off - there's one on the bottom. i need an spfi system schematic from a 92 fsm to verify this setup for the ref (the one i have is from an 89 fsm and only shows 3 lines, 92 fsm is probably the same exact schematic and the page doesn't show a date but this whole thing sailed over the boundary to ridiculous long ago...). i can cap and ignore the bottom one since he didn't look there this morning, but i'll have to have conclusive evidence that the fourth port should be plugged in factory configuration.

 

The '90 FSM covers '90-'94 so that's the one you'll have to go with.

 

The bottom port on the canister is supposed to be open. I can post a photo of my '93 canister showing the top 4 with the one plugged from the factory if that will help you convince the ref.

 

i asked if i could just write it on the clear plastic or put a sticker on there...nope. has to be on the face of the tach right by the ecs light "so there can be no mistake."

 

I would go to a junkyard and find any old instrument cluster that uses a Service Engine Soon light, take the plastic film strip out of the cluster, cut out just the SES part, then attach it to your cluster where your SES light bulb will shine through it.

 

 

 

i really didn't want to be an rump roast about the solenoid thing, but i guess i got offended cuz i really did know what i was talking about. i'm sure its hard for folks outside of ca to imagine their neighbors in ca are so definitively stupid, but things like this are exactly why my number one goal in life is to get my family the hell out of ca, and soon. i'll be damned if i'm gonna raise my son here!!

 

I feel for ya man. I have a very low tolerance level for bureaucracy and could never live there. Leaving ca would be a good thing, but be careful where you move to. Your suby probably wouldn't pass Austin's smog test either.

[mountaingoatgruff]

first thing i did this morning was pull the egr off and set it to soak in some b-12 (i was careful not to soak the diapragm) while i adjusted the valves. they were all too tight, so i backed them off to specs - .010 intake, .014 exhaust. i thought if anything this would make it louder but it seems quieter now. i pulled the rad to make it easy to get a socket on the crank bolt and to flush the system, refilled with fresh coolant/water. once i finished the with the valves/rad i used some compressed air to really clean the egr, but not much crud came off, it was pretty clean already.

 

after warmup i found the egr is opening sporadically now. i failed with higher hc and nox on wed than on mon, and now the egr doesn't want to open unless you give it enough throttle (a lot) so whatever it is seems to be getting worse.

 

i had my lovely assistant sit in the car and repetitively bring the rpm's to 1k, then 1500, then 2k, then 2500, then 3k. the egr wouldn't open at all untill 3k and it would barely budge at that point, maybe an eighth on an inch. sometimes it would open and instantly close, sometimes it would open and "wiggle," sometimes it would stay just open till the rpm's came down well below 3k.

 

so i checked for vac at the egr end of the vac line and i had a hard time feeling it but it seems to be there. to make sure i checked for vac before the solenoid and the vac seems stronger there. then i pulled the solenoid, checked it over and over and it opened every time. also i verified that the vented port is connected to the egr, the valved port is connected to the tb and of course the vent has the filter on it.

 

next i checked the vehicle-side connector with the engine warmed up and (from idle and up) there's 13.45V between the terminals of the connector, so the ecu signal is there.

 

also, while the engine was warming up i decided to unplug the cts to see what would happen, the idle dropped to about 750 rpm's and it seemed like it was unhappy. i plugged it back in and the engine instantly went back to just over 1500 rpm's and seemed happy again, so i'm gonna guess the cts is not likely an accomplice here.

 

its looking like a bad egr valve to me. my lovely assistant is going to go to kragen's for me this afternoon while i'm at work and pick up a new one. i don't really have time to hit up a yard and its not much more for a brand new one with a 1 year warranty. i'll install it after work tonight and i'm planning on using one of my spare relays and wiring a switch on the dash to turn on the second rad fan that was originally part of the a/c system. my car got pretty hot sitting on that dyno all rev'ed up in 90+ weather am i'm thinking maybe it'll help if i discreetly switch it on after i pull it up the dyno again.

[McDave]

Since the vacuum going into the solenoid seems stronger than what is coming out of it, you might try getting a longer vacuum hose and bypassing the solenoid temporarily to see if the egr valve acts better. If it does replace the solenoid.

 

PS I hope it idles lower than 1500 once it warms up.

[Gloyale]

CarQuest has 5/8th Evap hose. It does exist, and there is a rewason. You'll need it cause that heater hose you used will start seeping through oil in about 1 year times.

 

Glad to hear it's progresing