LuvScooby Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Hello room. I haven't posted in quite a while, but have been ever-lurking. I wanted to update my xt woes and get the opinions of all of you. I have an 88 xt dl that I put head gaskets on last year....bought the car that way. After putting her back together, the lifters would not pump up...even with 60+psi of oil pressure. Got remanned lifters from Mizpah, and put them in. Lifters still not pumping up. Ran the engine at around 2800 for 10 minutes, and still not pumping up. Bad/loud lifter rattle...on both sides of engine. Unable to properly adjust timing because of poor lifter pressure. SO.....suspecting that I had botched something up, I towed the car to a guy who was the lead mechanic at the 'used-to-be' local Subaru dealer. He now works from home, and has a pretty nice garage at his house. He's had the car for 2 months due to some family/health issues on his end. He called me today and said that he looked at the work I have done and t'belts and dizzy seem to be dead on. He said it looks like I did everything right. He pulled the valve covers off to make sure all of the rockers were still in place, and they were, but he said he could push the lifters in by hand easily, and he said that this, of course, is not right. He said that there appeared to be plenty of oil in the valve cover and on the compenents inside to lead him to believe that there was adequate oil flow. He said there were bits of rtv type sealant in the valve cover...left over from my cam case install I'm sure...and he wondered if there were blockage issues due to that. But...these are the mizpah lifters that I bought because the other lifters would not pump up. So...clogged lifters both times??? I just don't know...I kinda doubt it. What, fellow roomies, do I do now?? My subie mechanic says he really doesn't know whats wrong either. He mentioned ''NEW'' lifters. I have faith in this fellows abilities...I told him I didn't want extensive work done on it because of my available funds. After talking with him, he genuinely seems like a great guy, and I just don't think he's giving me any BS. Whats going on here? There has to be something I've missed. What now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azsubaru Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 I would try taking it for a 20 minute spin, and don't be too easy on it. It could be blockage or maybe the oil pump/seal, but I usually have to take a drive to get them to pump back up, reving the engine up quite a bit more than 2800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvScooby Posted July 1, 2008 Author Share Posted July 1, 2008 I have probably put 20 to 30 miles on it. It just isnt getting any better. I ran it upwards to 4500rpm for a little bit. I'm just perplexed at this point. I didn't use the metal inforced orings between the cam case and the head because my parts supplier said they were unavaiable. I just put regular orings in their place. Thats what they used at the Subaru dealer according to my friend. Neither set of lifters would pump up correctly, so it has to be something other than lifters, huh. The previous owner had used that 'head gasket repair junk' that you pour into your radiator, and there was a good deal of that crap in the engine...I just wonder if I have a blockage in the galleys...but on both side??? I just don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 The correct o-rings for the cam towers are still available from Subaru. I got a pair in today. I also got some lifters from Mizpah today and was disappointed with the quality. A couple had so much metal ground off the tip that they are .008ths shorter than the others and most of the hardened surface on the rounded (now flat) tip is gone. I'll be calling them in the morning. BTW The fsm recommends you stand the lifters upright in an oil bath and pump them up until they don't compress more than .5mm (.020in) before installing them in your motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvScooby Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 I did let the lifters stand upright and submerged in a container full of clean oil for nearly 48 hrs. before the install. I tried to 'prime' them by pressing down on the tops while they were submerged. I could move them very little, but I dont' know if finger pressure is enough to prime them...can anyone tell me? Keep the ideas coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 that's why i asked you over on the XT forum about the cam orings - that's more than likely your issue. I have probably put 20 to 30 miles on it. It just isnt getting any better. I ran it upwards to 4500rpm for a little bit. I'm just perplexed at this point. normally i'd say run it some more - "new" or fresh engines can take a long time to settle down, particularly the HLA style valve train...BUT...if you plan on keeping this car any length of time you need to replace those orings in my opinion. very likely the HLA's are flat because there's air getting sucked past the HLA's. I just put regular orings in their place. Thats what they used at the Subaru dealer according to my friend. probably more likely that he didn't know, misinterpreted something or is mistaken. every dealer i've gone to actually has them in stock. used to be $2.13 a piece...i've since bought a butt ton of them and haven't had to buy any in awhile. either way, not all dealers do this, and none of the couple i've frequented. http://www.thepartsbin.com used to carry them but wasn't any cheaper than Subaru, so if the local dealer isn't helpful go somewhere else that is. i've gotten then from a number of different dealers in multiple states, never had a problem. what head gaskets did you use and if it wasn't fel-pro PT's did you retorque them? you might want to go back in there anyway if that's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveeen Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 there were bits of rtv type sealant in the valve cover Be afraid, very afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 SOA part number for the o-ring is 13089AA010. While you're in there it wouldn't be a bad thing to replace/clean the spring on the relief valve after the lifters. I can get that part number tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvScooby Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 Thepartsbin is where I ordered the first set of orings that I 'lost'. I ordered from them again, and they were the ones who said that they didn't have any, and didn't know when they would have them again. I placed the second order, and just never heard from them...kinda made me ill. The closest subie dealer is, I think, 30 miles or so from me, so I just took a stab with the basic orings...although I didn't want to. If I go back in again, which it looks like I'm going to, I'll put the metal ones back in for sure. I did use felpro head gaskets, because luckily I had seen a post somewhere about having to retorque other types. I knew I didnt' want any part of that. I think I'm in good shape there. I 'think'. The debri in the cam cases doesn't make me happy, but shouldn't it have to pass thru the filter before it can be pushed into the engine again? I thought it went from pan to pump to filter to engine...or something like that. Does any oil bypass the filter? I hope any oil in the cam cases has to pass thru the filter before recirculating...but like many, many other times, I might be on the wrong track again. I dont mind trying to drive it a little more, but as of now it runs poorly because I can't dial the timing in properly because of the poor valve actuation due to the lifters being down. Kinda endless circle. I fear that I am going to have to purchase new oil pump, and pull the heads again, and have them completely rebuilt, and do the whole thing again...in the gravel no doubt. Haha...maybe thats what I get for taking the chance. Any other advice? How about hand priming lifters? Whats the right way to do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 i wouldn't worry about priming the HLA's. i've assembled a ton of subaru motors and putting them in fully pumped up or not even touching them makes no difference. with everything else functioning properly they'll pump up in no time. make sure they're properly lubed and all but *pumping them up* won't gain you anything in the end. except maybe the ticking goes away 13 seconds sooner that way!? i wouldn't pull the heads off, doubt there's anything wrong there. it might be as simple as the oil pump, that's easy enough so you might want to start there. reseal it - or buy a known good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvScooby Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 In reguards to the spring and the return valve...Is that the spring in the oil tube assembly? If so, I did at least remove the spring and clean the whole tube assy with contact fluid. I made sure that the tube was clear and fluid would pass thru. Is that what the relief valve assy is? I guess I can go up and pull the heads off the 'unicorn' since it doesn't look like I'll ever get it running. I can have them totally rebuilt, since theyre not turbo heads. Then I can just buy a new oil pump. Grrrrr... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 yes that's the relief spring mentioned earlier. you took care of that, but unlikely to be the cause here. any chance you might try the oil pump before getting back into the engine? that's probably what i would do. it might just need resealed. there are three oil pumps gaskets/seals - did you replace all 3? 1 oil pump to engine block gasket (mickey mouse) 2 oil pump shaft seal 3 oil pump oring - large diameter oring that goes in the groove so this car has never run without making a ton of noise for you? has the oil pan ever been removed that you know of? does it look like it, does the gasket look original, is there sealant on the oil pan (indicating it's been replaced before)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvScooby Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 I replaced all three of the seals you mentioned Gary. I personally have never pulled the oil pan on this car. I have no clue if it has ever been off or not. I honestly didn't look at it very closely when I was under there. I kinda wondered about the screen on the pickup. Im kinda wondering about all of the sludgy additive crap I found when I opened the engine. I guess I need to pull the pan and check the screen and look for any other debri in there. I bought the car with the head gasket issue, and was actually afraid to run it for fear of doing damage. I started it and drove it onto a tow dolly to tow it home, and drove it off of the dolly once home, and then backed it into position to work on it. I remember it didn't idle well, kinda low...had to pat the gas to keep it running. I also remember it had 'some' lifter tick, but not like now. I wish I could remember better. It definately had some issues, but at that time I just assumed it was all headgasket related. So it has run 'sickly' since I've had it. The thing that just kills me is that at one point, with the origional lifters, after the new headgaskets, I had this car in time, and had no misses, and took it for several pretty good drives, and it was very smoothe....aside from the extremely loud lifter rattle, it seemed to be doing pretty well. I know that there was still something not right, but I just cant seem to get it back to where I had it even...just a little irritating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 hang tight - i think this might turn out to be the simplest of all possibilities - the oil pump. this problem is very common, so it's a great place to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 I'm going to say you need to pull the cam Carriers and put a proper o-ring in there. You'll have the timing belt off, so you could do the oil pump at the same time. But the carrier o-ring has GOT to be a proper type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torxxx Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I'm amazed at how many users on this board replace the hla's.. There is nothing wrong with them 99% of the time your problem is at your oil pump. when this first came up about cleaning/rebuilding them I tried it and it didnt make a difference. Put a new oil pump on my car, problem solved. The mickey mouse seal leaks all the time on and there is a shaft seal that will leak too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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