lostinthe202 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Seems like the fact that the same CEL code has been happening under the same circumstances before and after the engine swap is important. Wouldn't it be highly unlikely that the C & C sensors would fail in the same way and so soon after the swap? I wouldn't be surprised if the C & C sensors weren't new but rather good testing used units. But even so, chances are that it's some aspect of the car that was not touched/interfered with before and after the swap. I've been following this post, I love a good mystery! I wish I had something better to offer then a string of logic that you've probably already thought of, but I just don't know enough about the electrical side of newer cars to be of much assistance. I just thought I would throw it out there because you're talking about paying some bucks to have the valves set when they were just set 10k ago by a reputable outfit. So since the... ECU Igniter Injectors Plugs Wires O2 sensor Crank sensor Cam Sensor anything I'm missing? ...have all been changed/investigated, what else is there that wouldn't have been swapped with the engine? Didn't I read on here someplace, somewhere, sometime that a backed up Cat can cause this problem? I could be totally pulling that out of my... Sure hope you figure it out! Will- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 NEW INFORMATION!! Cam and crank sensors were swapped from my old engine by CCR. Which is more likely the problem? Do I test something or just start throwing parts at it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 NEW INFORMATION!! Cam and crank sensors were swapped from my old engine by CCR. Which is more likely the problem? Do I test something or just start throwing parts at it? They reused your old sensors? Change them suckers out! Be sure to ask for the bundled pair. I don't know if they are still offering them that way, but they were back when they were under the initial recall. Anytime they offer a deal like that (both for less than the price of either) on parts, they know they have/had a big problem and want to make the customer happy. I've gotten expensive recalled parts before that were priced just high enough to cover shipping costs. If they aren't bundled any longer, I would still buy both since they apparently made changes to both. You might also ask if there is a difference between the 2.2 and 2.5 sensors as was brought up earier in this thread, just out of curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted September 18, 2008 Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 They reused your old sensors? Change them suckers out! Be sure to ask for the bundled pair. I don't know if they are still offering them that way, but they were back when they were under the initial recall. Anytime they offer a deal like that (both for less than the price of either) on parts, they know they have/had a big problem and want to make the customer happy. I've gotten expensive recalled parts before that were priced just high enough to cover shipping costs. If they aren't bundled any longer, I would still buy both since they apparently made changes to both. You might also ask if there is a difference between the 2.2 and 2.5 sensors as was brought up earier in this thread, just out of curiosity. Where would you go to find this bundled pair of - must be cam - sensors? Just call a Subaru dealer? I don't have one here so I usually buy parts on line. Do you have any other information on this recall because it probably happened before I owned the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 (edited) Where would you go to find this bundled pair of - must be cam - sensors? Just call a Subaru dealer? I don't have one here so I usually buy parts on line. Do you have any other information on this recall because it probably happened before I owned the car. The bundled sensors I'm talking about is the cam and crank sensor. I've already checked on the online dealers and haven't found them listed. Send me a PM with your year/model/engine size and the last 8 digits of your VIN and I'll call my dealer tomorrow to sort out what's available and get the part number(s) and prices for you. Edited September 18, 2008 by McDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 PM Sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Wow, I came in late on this one...tried to read over most of it to get an idea of what's going on, and in the back of my mind I kept thinking it might be a cam or crank sensor. Never had one fail on me, but I've talked to a subaru shop in town that has had consistent problems with crank sensors being covered in oil, from a leaking crank seal, causing the engine to run fine but throw random misfire codes. Yours doesn't leak oil, but a faulty sensor could do the same thing. What about getting them from a junk yard, at least for troubleshooting purposes, rather than throwing new ones at it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSRBIKER Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Shouldn't CCR replaced these or at least tested yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 The problem with using used sensors is you won't know if they are the old design or if they came out of an overheated engine. Then if it still triggers the cel you will be left wondering if it could still be the sensors. The new sensors are sold separately, not bundled and were in stock at the dealer I called. That's often a good sign that they replace lots of them. The part numbers listed below also show up on the online sites like http://www.subarugenuineparts.com/ Crank sensor #22053 AA 052 - $34.22 list price, $25.05 online. Cam sensor #22056 AA 062 - $61.72 list, $45.18 online. 1 of each are needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 Rocky Mountain Subaru in Grand Junction had the kit that contains both sensors for $50. I will have them tomorrow. I have a trip to the front range later this week, so I will try to get them in before we go. That will give us a good test. I hope this is it. So, anything I should be aware of on installation? it looks very straight forward. But I'm the guy that hydro-locked the engine swapping injectors. Any input is welcomed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 Rocky Mountain Subaru in Grand Junction had the kit that contains both sensors for $50. I will have them tomorrow. I have a trip to the front range later this week, so I will try to get them in before we go. That will give us a good test. I hope this is it. So, anything I should be aware of on installation? it looks very straight forward. But I'm the guy that hydro-locked the engine swapping injectors. Any input is welcomed. Oh man, I knew they were bundled. I'm going to have to give my parts guy a hard time. Be sure you post the part number here. They just bolt on. Nothing special to do since they're just magnetic induction pickups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 Oh man, I knew they were bundled. I'm going to have to give my parts guy a hard time. Be sure you post the part number here. They just bolt on. Nothing special to do since they're just magnetic induction pickups. Thanks, I got your pm after posting. I will post the part# when I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted September 24, 2008 Author Share Posted September 24, 2008 I installed the sensors tonight. The part # that is on the invoice for the kit is 22090AA000. I don't know if that is a Subaru #. The installation took about 15 minutes including removing and reinstalling the battery and cleaning the cables. They weren't that dirty, I just always clean them if I take them off. I am posting a picture of the old crank sensor. It had a thick layer of what looks like carbon right on the bottom of it. I don't know if that could have blocked any signals or not. It may not be carbon, it just looks like it. On my way home, before installing the sensors, I got gas. Soon after that stop, I got a cel. I did not check it or clear it, but I assume it was the same as always. BTW, before anyone brings it up, I already replaced the gas cap. After installing the sensors, I took a drive. I got 22 miles before the cel came back on. Again, I never cleared the earlier code, but the light was off because I had the battery unhooked for about 10 minutes. I pulled over and read the code. It was a single 0304 code. I cleared it, and it has not come back on yet, but that would be pretty normal anyway. I'm wondering if the ECM completely clears itself just from having the battery unhooked for a few minutes, or if this could have been a leftover from the earlier misfire. I wish now I had read it and cleared it the first time. It may have been a single 0303, but I don't know. Any thoughts? Another dead end? I sure have a lot of new parts on this car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted September 24, 2008 Author Share Posted September 24, 2008 OK, i went for a drive this morning and got both misfire codes. If anything, it's happening with renewed vigor. The only other thing I am going to do is see if CCR will recheck the valves sometime when I can make it over to Denver. Other than that, I think I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 (edited) OK, i went for a drive this morning and got both misfire codes. If anything, it's happening with renewed vigor. The only other thing I am going to do is see if CCR will recheck the valves sometime when I can make it over to Denver. Other than that, I think I'm done. How disappointing. At least this last round was fairly cheap and easy to do, and like I said in the PM, it was something that had to be done to rule the possibility out and to show ccr that you've done all you could on your end before asking to have the valves checked. If it truly is happening more often, don't throw the old parts out, consider putting them back in to see if it goes back to the way it was before, and take a very close look at the wiring at the sensors. I've seen wires broken inside the insulation with only a couple strands making a connection. Pull gently on each wire near the connector and watch for the plastic insulation to stretch. If it does most of the wire is broken inside and you probably just broke the last of the strands. Also, start the car, warm it to operating temps and wiggle all under hood wires while it's idling to see if you can get the codes to set. As far as what else can be done besides checking for tight valve adjustment or valve guides slipping, it gets complicated. It will take a top tech with the proper equipment and patience to scan while in movie mode and hope to get it to act up in a relatively short time. When we get a car like this it becomes our 'parts chaser' so we can drive it often to the parts store with the scanner hooked up without having to bill you for the hours spent in it. Once they get a positive movie capture, hopefully one of the parameters will point them in the right direction. Bottom line, I wouldn't blame you for calling 'uncle' after ccr does their thing either. But the fact that it appears to be getting worse may actually help make it easier for a shop to find the problem. You just might want to point them to this thread first so they don't start replacing a bunch of parts you don't need. It's going to take intense diagnosing, not parts changing to figure this one out. Edited September 24, 2008 by McDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 I had an '87 Volvo wagon awhile ago that had weird electrical problems. From a forum, I found out that Volvo's supplier of their wiring harnesses used wire with a bum insulation that broke down and caused all kinds of problems. I tried finding the bad portions of wire and eventually gave up and bought a sub-harness from a later year that was schematically the same but not made by the same company. I'm not suggesting that Subaru's wires are bunk, but could that be a course of action to replace a sub-harness? Of course I suggest this without actually knowing how Subaru's harness are split up, but perhaps it would be easy to find some replacement sections say for the injectors at a JY? Sorry the C & C thing didn't work out, I was rootin' for ya! Will- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted September 24, 2008 Author Share Posted September 24, 2008 ...take a very close look at the wiring at the sensors. I've seen wires broken inside the insulation with only a couple strands making a connection. Pull gently on each wire near the connector and watch for the plastic insulation to stretch. Well, I did take another closer look at the wires. I found that the white wire on the crank sensor has a bare spot, broken insulation, just before it goes into the female plug. I checked as closely as i could without a magnifier, and it does not seem to be broken, just bare. I have to leave for the front range a 4 am tomorrow, and I have meetings tonight, so I don't have much time to work on it. For now, I encased the wire in plumbers goop - fixes almost anything - and wrapped it up tight in electrical tape. At least it should be insulated better and splinted somewhat. I cleared the codes, and the trip tomorrow will tell us if it did any good. Long-range, I need to replace that connector. I'm not sure how those attach. Do you need a special crimping tool? I could get a new/used one with some wire leads on it and splice it I suppose. Yet another possibility. I will be both happy and irritated if this little break in the insulation is the problem I've been tracking for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted September 25, 2008 Author Share Posted September 25, 2008 Still throwing codes on the trip over today. Anyone know what is involved in replacing the type of connector that is on the crank sensor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screwbaru2 Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Still throwing codes on the trip over today. Anyone know what is involved in replacing the type of connector that is on the crank sensor? You probably already know this but, if you do splice a new connector on,(which I would do in your case) make sure you solder the wires together. Don't use crimp type connectors those are not good for wiring that goes to a ecu, too great of a chance of the wires coming apart. What a interesting thread. You should get some kinda prize or award for this baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Well, I did take another closer look at the wires. I found that the white wire on the crank sensor has a bare spot, broken insulation, just before it goes into the female plug. I checked as closely as i could without a magnifier, and it does not seem to be broken, just bare. I have to leave for the front range a 4 am tomorrow, and I have meetings tonight, so I don't have much time to work on it. For now, I encased the wire in plumbers goop - fixes almost anything - and wrapped it up tight in electrical tape. At least it should be insulated better and splinted somewhat. I cleared the codes, and the trip tomorrow will tell us if it did any good. Long-range, I need to replace that connector. I'm not sure how those attach. Do you need a special crimping tool? I could get a new/used one with some wire leads on it and splice it I suppose. Yet another possibility. I will be both happy and irritated if this little break in the insulation is the problem I've been tracking for years. Just bumping this thread to let you know we're back, and was wondering if you ever solved the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted November 12, 2008 Author Share Posted November 12, 2008 No. I am driving with the light on. It goes off for a couple of days at a time once in a while. I also never replaced the crank sensor plug. I have been traveling, catching up from traveling, and preparing for winter, so I haven't worked on the car. I did get the OK from CCR to bring it over for a valve check and general look-see. I'm just not sure when I'm going to get the time. On the positive side though, I found four practically new rims for it here in town for $60. Nothing fancy, but now I can run good snow tires all winter instead of all seasons. I'll let you know if I find anything on the CEL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I didn't read all the pages, but I'm having P0303 on my 98 OBS. I have found #3 not firing. I back probed the injector plug to check for voltage, the book says 12 volts minimum. Voltage is always there the ECU supplies the gound to complete the circuit, but you'd need an O scope to see the voltage drop. The harness is not to bad to change, the manifold comes off and then you can swap it out. I may have a 2.5 harness off a 98 Legacy. I'm in COS. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 Well, I thought it was time for an update. I took the car over to Denver this week. I wanted the folks at CCR to take a look at it and see if they could figure anything out with the misfire problem. I had found that one of my front CV boots was ripped, and since the axles have 211,000 on them, I decided to go ahead and replace the with some MWE remans. CCR installed them for me. They had a few ideas on the misfire, but none of them made any difference. Late in the day they decided to just replace the entire intake, which of course meant the fuel rails, injectors, and wiring harness got replaced too. 15 minutes from the shop my cel was on - 303, 304. I was trying to think of what I haven't replaced. It is by far the shorter list. The temp sensor hasn't been replaced. They didn't have one there and it was late when they had the intake off. Maybe it's the light in the glove box, or a tail light fuse causing the problem. Maybe it's the color of the car, or a loose fender. Maybe all the lug nuts are not equally torqued. Anyway, I drove 260 miles each way through the mountains in winter weather. The car runs perfectly, never stumbles, always starts, cruises through snow and over passes with aplomb, gets 29 to 32 mpg - I just have to ignore that irritating little orange light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 98 Legacy, 2.2L 147,000 mis FWIW, I was getting P0301 and P0302. Replaced spark plugs and plug wires, cleared the codes, drove it and it went away. No codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 98 Legacy, 2.2L 147,000 mis FWIW, I was getting P0301 and P0302. Replaced spark plugs and plug wires, cleared the codes, drove it and it went away. No codes. Plugs and wires? Maybe I should try that:grin: Sorry, glad that fixed your problem. I've done plugs and wires multiple times over the several years I've been chasing this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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