PAezb Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Well, My 96 OBW w/138k is now showing the streaming bubbles in the coolant reservior - a sure sign of HG failure. Hasn't overheated and still get good heat in the cabin, so hopefully I've caught this early. I'll insist on a compression test and exhaust gas in the coolant check before going ahead with any work. Called several dealers and shops in my area (Minneapolis) and got estimates of $1200 to $2500 for HG kit replacement and machined heads (if needed). One independent stated they would rather not do it for fear it would come back knowing the reputations on these engines. I've got it down to 2 dealers that I have had work done before, one where I purchased the car. Both are in the $1400 to $1500 range. I'm ready to look for a new vehicle anyway, so I might try dumping it for a trade-in. I've got the 05 OBW with the H6 on my short list but other than what info I could find on the web, haven't much detail yet. I fear too, the price will be beyond what I'm willing to spend. We'll see. Anyway, please welcome and accept me into the brotherhood... I truly feel blessed... Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philbiker Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 I've seen cars from Nissan and others that have blown head gaskets between 100 and 140K. I don't think a HG at 140K is terribly unusual. If I were in your shoes and I liked the current Soobies I'd dump it. But don't sell it used, trade it in. The 2004s are at the end of the model cycle which means somewhat dated styling, but great deals with big incentives. 8 years and 140K miles is not bad in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxersOnly Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Welcome to the club ;-) I guess it all depends on what you want: spend about 2 Grand for more years with your current ride, out shell out more $$$ for a newer model.... Rob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4FOR4 Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Before you throw the baby away with the bath water, a 96 should have the 2.2 in it, which isn't the HG problem engine, that's the 2.5. Bubbles all by themselves don't mean you have a bad HG, it could just be the normal expansion/ contraction of the coolant with the engine temp. Or possibly some air that wasn't fully removed, or a bad radiator cap. Maybe the cooling fans aren't working which is causing coolant to boil which could cause bubbles. Have you lost any fluid? Is the overflow filling up with coolant and not returning when cooled down? Check out possible other causes first. When it overheats, or you start to see huge temperature fluctuations on the gage, then get concerned. I don't think we'll be showing you the secret club hand shake just yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outback_97 Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 '96 does have a 2.5l. My '97 has just over 100K miles, and I think I'd get mine fixed (at an indy shop for $1200 or so, what I've been preemptively quoted) if the HG went today. I still enjoy driving it and it's been a good car for me. An '05 would be sweet but no car payment is pretty nice too. My $.02. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Before you throw the baby away with the bath water, a 96 should have the 2.2 in it, which isn't the HG problem engine, that's the 2.5. QUOTE] BTW 96 5sdp was 2.2 96 Auto was 2.5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 I've seen cars from Nissan and others that have blown head gaskets between 100 and 140K. I don't think a HG at 140K is terribly unusual. If I were in your shoes and I liked the current Soobies I'd dump it. But don't sell it used, trade it in. The 2004s are at the end of the model cycle which means somewhat dated styling, but great deals with big incentives. 8 years and 140K miles is not bad in my book. I think the worse thing about this is HG issue is that Subaru knows it is a problem and does nothing about it. Toyota had an issue with head gaskets on their 90-95 3.0 motors and they are will still pay for the cost of replacement to any 4Runner or Truck that is under 100k miles that has an issue, regardless if it is original owner or not. And they did a recall so if you have it done before 100k they will pay even if there is not an issue yet to make sure you do not get stranded. As a Subaru owner of over 10 wagons over a period of 16 years it truly saddens me to see that the brand has gone from such a rock solid vehicle to this. I know that when my current 2.2 dies if I cannot find a early legacy w/ 2.2 to replace it I will be looking elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted April 3, 2004 Share Posted April 3, 2004 Welcome to the club Paul. Hope you enjoy the site. It may be money well spent to have a block check done to verify your suspicions. It is not very expensive to do. There are a lot of very good used Soobs out there also. Unless there is something you really can't pass up with a new one you could save a lot of money with a slightly used one. A close out '04 will be less also as others mentioned and will still have a good warranty. One nice thing about a new one is the financing is good right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendly_jacek Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Guest's Name: Doug.... Guest's Home Page: Don't Have One Date Signed: Wed Jan 15 13:46:27 2003 Referred By: 61,000 miles, 97 Venture, lower intake manifold gasket blown (per dealership); engine bad. Called GM for assistance and they claim they can't provide any. BS, this should have been a recall item: they were out of that gasket all last year nationwide, they just redesigned the gasket, and this is a part that should never never fail. Last 4 vehicles have been GM and will never buy GM again, I am back to Subaru. Too bad, I liked the Saturn and Venture and looked forward to upgrading both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendly_jacek Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 RE: "Toyota had an issue with head gaskets on their 90-95 3.0 motors and they are will still pay for the cost of replacement to any 4Runner or Truck that is under 100k miles that has an issue, regardless if it is original owner or not. And they did a recall so if you have it done before 100k they will pay even if there is not an issue yet to make sure you do not get stranded." Rweddy, Sorry to burst your bubble but Toyota's reliability and ethics of 80's and early 90's is a thing of the past. Are you aware of engine oil gelling (read sludge) in 1996-1999 camry and sienna? Toyota would blaim the owners and cancel warranty on often new cars with sludge before lawsuits and internet consumer activists forced the recognition of the engine problems. Recently, Toyota's cars suffer from stinky (H2S) exhaust. Toyota blaims it on the bad gas, that is bad fuel ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Rweddy, Sorry to burst your bubble but Toyota's reliability and ethics of 80's and early 90's is a thing of the past. Are you aware of engine oil gelling (read sludge) in 1996-1999 camry and sienna? Toyota would blaim the owners and cancel warranty on often new cars with sludge before lawsuits and internet consumer activists forced the recognition of the engine problems. Recently, Toyota's cars suffer from stinky (H2S) exhaust. Toyota blaims it on the bad gas, that is bad fuel ;-) Well I am not a Toyota proponent, but even if this is the case you are talking about an isolated few vehicles over a few year span. From what I have experienced from friends and read on this list the 2.5 is a terrible designed engine and they all have or will have head gasket issues. I know that my fathers 97 Toyota has 200k with no problems and it seams that this will not be the case with any Subaru product with the 2.5 engine that has been standard since 96. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAezb Posted April 14, 2004 Author Share Posted April 14, 2004 Just an update: My 96 2.5 definitely had hydrocarbons in the coolant, so she's in the dealer shop for the next couple of days for major surgery. Also found was a sticky IAC valve, and front brake pads down to 2% material left, 60% still on the rears. Anyway, I'll have a nice repair bill greeting me on Friday. You can show me that club handshake now... On another note, another dealer called me this afternoon to say they just got the prices in for the 2005 Outbacks. I'm only interested in the H6, so, the base model is an L.L. Bean edition with leather only, no cloth, MSRP will be $32,777. I didn't ask about the VDC model, but I imaging it's a few thousand more. Anyway, given no base model with cloth is offered, and with a pretty good idea where dealer invoice will be, I'm afraid Subaru is off my short list for a new purchase. There are too many other manufacturer AWD models that offer some compelling features/performance/reliability/price ratios. And I wasn't really overwhelmed with a 2004 H6 I test drove last fall. I'm still curious what the new H6 with the variable valve timing and more HP will do for performance. So, I be driving my 96 baby for awhile longer at least, and bide my time researching the new vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlierh2 Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Paezb, what dealers do you like in Mpls? I need a dealer who knows abotu the security system and the one i took it to last time didnt know anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAezb Posted April 15, 2004 Author Share Posted April 15, 2004 Morrie's Subaru in Minnetonka is where I bought the car, and where it is being serviced now. Like the other dealers, they're a tad high on their service labor and parts, but they've done decent work for me in the past (the timing belt, oil seals, water pump, etc @ 103K). I called several independants on the HG work, but none gave me a warm & fuzzy that I would trust them to do the job right the first time. Luther's Bloomington Acura/Subau is where I have also had some work done before. Again, high prices but they did the work competently. This is the dealer that called me back on the 2005 Outback pricing. For new car sales on a Toyota or Subaru, I'd check out St. Cloud Toyota, ask for Bruce in sales. He was great on my Mom's 91' Camry, and he was very helpful when I was checking out the Tundra's and Tacoma's. They sell lots of Subies too. Unless it's major work beyond my ability or ambition, like the HG's I'm having done now, I always do the work myself (shade tree mechanic). All the dealers are high on their service prices, but I'm kinda at their mercy on this major stuff. I would think any of the authorized Subie dealers should be able to solve your issues though. Which one did you take your vehicle to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlierh2 Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 thanx very much it was at Morries before and they couldnt figure out that the hood senser for the alarm wasnt working before so im hesitant to take it to them again for more problems with the alarm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAezb Posted April 20, 2004 Author Share Posted April 20, 2004 Well, I got the car back this afternoon. Machined heads, new HG gaskets & seals, timing belt, coolant flush, oil change, new IAC valve, and front brake job. They also installed NGK plugs I brought in that I had planned to do myself, but, since they had to pull the engine anyway.... I would normally do the brakes myself, but since it was going in I just decided to have it all done and get it over with. Bite on a bullet when you read this, total, $2145. And that was with discounts. I'll let you know if there are any issues that arise. In the meantime, I'm not bashful about posting some pics of of the copy of my service bill. Hopefully, some of you can use it as a reference and do better on the bottom line. I hope this was worth it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theotherskip Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 OUCH... sorry to hear that total... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collins Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Ok guys,I called again !-800-782-2783. the Subaru rep. said she has never heard of this problem.Man it gets to me! I hope evryone with this problem calls this #.I can't do much on my own.It's worth a try.Oh and get this,she said they know there is a problem with 99 to2001.So they started giving customers a bottle of "treatment" Collins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlierh2 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 sry if its on the invoices couldnt find it. how many hours was the $1500 of labor for? that seems pretty high Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderhound Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 PAezb and charlierh2 Don't let the suby dealers in the msp area rip you off!!! IMO they are all severly overpriced and incompetent. It is a bit out of the way but the dealer in Eau Claire (the name escapes me at the moment but I can look it up if you're interested) is vastly superior and their prices have often been cheaper than indy shops. Plus they get you in and get you out...I know I've waited at white bear acura/subaru for alternator recall service long enough I was ready to shoot someone by the time they finished. I mean how long can it take to swap an alternator...15 min tops. I'm rambling now but seriously whenever a friend needs their suby worked on I always tell them to head east to Eau Claire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAezb Posted April 21, 2004 Author Share Posted April 21, 2004 I'm not sure of the exact hours, but it meets the original estimate they gave me on everything before they started work. That was in line with another dealer, and a couple hundred more than some independents - but the indies only had warranty of 3 or 4 months or 4000 miles - so we went with the dealer. I wasn't thrilled that they had thrown in a new timing belt when the old one only had 35K on it, but I should'nt have to replace it again for the remaining life of the car. A couple of the independents also stated they would not do the HG work without replacing the Timing Belt. Another point I brought the car in last Wednesday and didn't pick it up until today (Tuesday) including the weekend which the service shop was not open. They did loan me a new Ford Explorer with only 3K for the duration, no charge. A nice ride, but boy, not the gas milage I get from the Subaru. I suspect some of the higher cost is to absorb the cost of the rental. Anyway, it's over with for now. I hope she hold's together for awhile ( a couple of years). In the meantime, I'm researching possible new vehicles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlierh2 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 thanx for the heads up on the dealership. so you think its really worth taking the car there instead, there that much better. or is this a state economy booster......? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collins Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Has anyone ever tried doing this gasket job? Can't believe I'm asking cause these engins are so tough to work on. Collins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAezb Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 thanx for the heads up on the dealership. so you think its really worth taking the car there instead, there that much better. or is this a state economy booster......?No, your problem should be much simpler and relatively inexpensive to solve especially for the dealer familar with the car. Certainly not life threating to the running the car itself like failing HGs. Is your alarm Subaru/dealer installed or is it aftermarket? Get the yellow pages out and contact those shops that advertise that they specialize in alarm/electrical problems. Given the serious nature of the HG failure, I just felt it was worth spending a couple of hundred more to have a dealer do the job - someone who knows and works on these engines exculsively. Not to mention having the backing of the warranty and SOA if problems arise. Time will tell if I made the right decision to keep the car awhile longer and dumping the money I did into her. Since this HG problem started to be reported here and elsewhere on the web years ago, I've occasionally called the big dealerships thru-out Minnesota, to get ball park estimates and compare them, knowing that given the number of reports, it was only a matter of time before the problem showed up on my Subaru. They were all fairly close their estimates. The problem with independents is finding one who has seen or worked on a number of these engines. Would you really want a mechanic whose not familar with Subaru's to work on them? t - I've heard horror stories from friends and acqaintances about problems following them (on various makes/models) after major service was performed by the indy down the street. And others have had good success with independents - with the big 3 car makes at least. Yes, Morries was high on their charges, but more importantly it needs to be noted that this is an design issue with the engine itself, and it's a reflection on Subaru. You know, I wouldn't make too big a deal about the HG and expense if it appeared that it was just luck of the draw that this failure happened on my Subaru. Mechanical failures happen afterall. But the fact that there are a fair number of reported failures, and many more that we don't read about, and that the repair is expensive, it's important that I and other's share our experiences to inform and warn others. Forums like this are extremely helpful in educating people about these problems (HGs, oil leaks, piston slap, etc) and the associated costs and hassle. If it hasn't already, it will eventually affect Subaru's bottom line to some degree with regards to new car sales with the 2.5. Hopefully it will get Subaru to continue to make the necessary design changes, or drop this engine altogether. I do agree I've been lucky to get 140K out of her before this occurred. With all that said, I still like Subaru's, the overall quality, driveability, fuctionality, and up until recently, the value/cost ratio. For me at least, if I decide to buy *new* again in the near future, I doubt Subaru will be on my short list of vehicles I'll be considering. Certainly not any with the 2.5. BTW, the car appears to be running good, except for an occasional low idle at stops, ~300-400rpms. Morrie's will be looking at it tomorrow. Want to mention also that while my car was in for repairs, I did stop at the dealership to talk to service about their progress. Got to see the engine pulled out of the car, heads off of course, cams and other parts neatly laid out around it. Wish I had my digital camera at the time - would of uploaded a few pics for those of you who haven't seen one of these engines out of the car and opened up. Somewhat surprise at how much smaller it looks with it out of the car and the heads off. Got to examine the tips of the Bosch Platinums +4 still in the heads. They looked good after 80K, just a nice clean gray film on them. Still can't understand why others have had problems with Bosch plugs. Anyway, she has new NGK V-power copper plugs now. I'll let you know if I notice a performce difference. I did talk with one of the techs for 15 minutes while looking at the opened engine - facinating and educational. I feel like I could almost do the repair myself next time - oh my god, what am I saying... Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlierh2 Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 yea it is the oem alarm all i did is add the subaru upgrade. wish oyu had gotten the pics wouldve been fun to see...... oh well thanx very much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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