Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

Engine removal fun (EJ22)

ej22 engine removal

  • Please log in to reply
88 replies to this topic

#76 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 9,089 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 29 June 2014 - 10:03 PM

So you're getting spark, and at least getting the commands for the injectors to pulse. If you can smell fuel in the tail pipe after cranking for a few seconds then you can figure that the injectors are probably squirting.

Sounds like you're getting enough volume from the pump during the prime. That doesn't mean its creating proper pressure, but these pumps are pretty stout. If it moves fuel its probably working fine.

You know you still have spark? But is it enough spark? Alot of times a plug will fire under no load conditions, but there may not be enough energy to make the spark jump the gap when the cylinder is under compression.
This could be because of old plugs/wires or a weak coil. Or the battery voltage is too low to create sufficient spark.
I don't recall if it was mentioned before, but did you check voltage at the coil while cranking?

The only other thing left is compression. There is a good chance the cylinder walls have been washed down by fuel at this point and a squirt of oil into the cylinders may be needed to restore proper sealing of the rings to the cylinder walls.

#77 upnorthguy

upnorthguy

    New User

  • Members
  • 268 posts
  • Northern Virginia

Posted 30 June 2014 - 12:07 AM

I see spark, but I'm not sure if it is "enough."  I only have a pretty crappy cheapo analog voltmeter, so specific voltage is not that easy to read (10v scale isn't enough, 50v doesn't give great detail).  I'll get a digital so I can get a better handle on what I have at the coil during cranking.

I think I mentioned somewhere above that I have no idea how old the wires are, but I could get a new set.  It is just strange that everything was working before I disconnected/removed everything to take out the engine.  Would it be normal for wires (or the coil) to just "go bad" like that and not show any other reduced performance?

 

I looked for coils at the yard when I was there two weeks ago but they were already picked from the cars there.  I'll have to try another spot.

 

For squirting some oil into the cylinder: do I just put a little shot (a few drips, a little more?) in through the spark plug hole?



#78 myhilo

myhilo

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 62 posts
  • Addison, IL. USA

Posted 30 June 2014 - 04:13 PM

Can you try to get back to first principles and establish whether the engine has the three things needed:

 

Spark

Fuel

Compression

 

Can you add a little gas into the intake air after the MAF sensor.  Don't chance contaminating the sensor, add about a teaspoon of gas into the intake at a hose seam downstream from the sensor.

 

This should be enough to get the engine to start for a little bit and die.  That will tell you if it starts and dies, the compression is OK and the spark is OK. so the problem is fuel related.

 

If it doesn't even fire at all with gas, then it's either compression or spark.  Not too likely compression, but you can tell my loosening a spark plug to finger tight/or removing it and putting your finger into the hole while bridging the starter between the positive cable terminal and the smaller terminal.  I suggest just disconnecting the terminal and using a old screwdriver or pliers, bridge between these two wire terminals. You will get a spark so no gas fumes around!  Two things will happen suddenly, the spark at the terminal when the  metals make contact and the starter will engage and rotate the engine causing the loose or removed spark plug hole to push out the compressed cylinder charge.  This is a crude way to do things but I am assuming you have limited tools or experience so I'm trying to make it very basic.

 

There are a few cautions to take.  No gas fumes, nothing hanging in the way of the engine parts as it suddenly turns over (belts and fans clear?).  Of course I always worry about hurting the computer. Also, the bridging of the positive cable connection at the starter will short out anywhere the bridging metal of the screwdriver or pliers come into contact with any grounded metal under the hood.

 

If you have compression and you have tried to add gas the thing to follow up on is spark and you are doing all the right things so far.



#79 virginiaham

virginiaham

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts
  • Falls Church, Virginia

Posted 30 June 2014 - 04:17 PM

yeah, if you have injector pulse, and the plugs are fouling or the smell of gasoline is coming from the exhaust your injectors are firing. 

 

weak spark could be your culprit. trying a known good coil would be the route id go if i didnt have an inline spark checker. 

 

as for how much oil to put in the cylinder, i personally like to use trans fluid, because i feel like it spreads out along the cylinder walls a little better (although i have no proof of this, its just a gut feel thing) and i would put about a half- to no more than a capfull of oil (from a standard bottle, not a mobil-1 bottle with a comically large cap) into each cylinder, and then use the starter to spin the engine over for about 5 sec with all the spark plugs removed. that should coat your cylinders sufficiently enough to bump your compression up. 



#80 upnorthguy

upnorthguy

    New User

  • Members
  • 268 posts
  • Northern Virginia

Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:24 PM

When I took the plugs out tonight I can definitely smell and see some gas residue on them, so it seems like there is plenty of gas getting to the cylinder.  I let things dry out for a bit (probably could have been longer) and got a shot of trans fluid in each spark plug hole.  Turned the engine over for a few seconds.  Installed plugs, turned it over.  

It felt like the engine fired once or twice like it was about to start but then it just went to turning over.  Maybe I need a little more oil in there.  I have to admit that getting 1/2 or whole capful of oil into each hole is trickier than I would have thought.

I put up a post in the parts wanted looking for an ignition coil.  Unless I can try and check out one of the other parts yards around or find a good source online that is reasonable (non OEM from Advance Auto is $100).



#81 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 9,089 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 30 June 2014 - 10:14 PM

Generally a heavier oil is better. If you have any gear oil around, that works awesome for bringing up compression.

Do you have a compression tester? If not you can usually rent one from an auto parts store.

#82 Pgh_Scoob

Pgh_Scoob

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • 150 posts
  • Pittsburgh

Posted 01 July 2014 - 10:24 PM

Do you have a fuel pressure tester???? I had a 99 SUS no start at my shop a few weeks ago... sounded a lot like yours same thing with cranking and want to turnover but not. Did all the initial steps stated earlier.

After hooking up the fuel pressure tester and priming the pump it went into spec but while cranking there was not enough pressure being produced by the pump.... So with a coworker while cranking we sprayed starter fluid into the intake... car fired up and tried to run...Put a new fuel pump in and ran a intake cleaner through and down the road it went.

Hope this helps,

Greg



#83 upnorthguy

upnorthguy

    New User

  • Members
  • 268 posts
  • Northern Virginia

Posted 02 July 2014 - 11:47 AM

I got a compression tester from Autozone last night.  Unfortunately, the one extension piece it came with isn't long enough to clear the top of the spark plug hole, so I don't have a way to tighten it other than spinning it in with the rubber hose and trying not to get it too tight (making removal a problem).  I ran it on all cylinders, although I am a bit skeptical of the results because of the inability to tighten.

Pressures were (dry) 30, 60, 90, 120 psi.  The 30 and 60 were on one side of the block and the 90 and 120 were on the other side.  I was going to to a wet test after getting a bit of gear oil in there and then my battery ran out of juice and the skeeters were getting me so I'm charging up and going to check out wet pressures tonight.

I haven't tried to figure out the pressure specs yet, but the 30 and 60 seem pretty low.

 

No fuel pressure tester, but it looks like I can get one from Autozone.



#84 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 9,089 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 02 July 2014 - 08:53 PM

The test hose should have an o-ring on the end which makes the seal, and only needs to be hand tight.
Make sure the hose has the schrader valve in the end of it. This is important for holding pressure in the hose since you're increasing the volume of space that the engine is cramming air into so it takes several rotations of the engine to get an accurate compression reading.

Remove ALL of the spark plugs. Test each cylinder with all plugs removed. You want the engine to spin freely.
When cranking, hold the gas pedal on the floor so as much air as possible can get into the engine.
You want it to turn over the same number of times for each cylinder, so count the "puffs". I like 5. Some people only do 4.

#85 upnorthguy

upnorthguy

    New User

  • Members
  • 268 posts
  • Northern Virginia

Posted 04 July 2014 - 02:01 PM

Checked compression again today.  70, 70, 90, 120 (5 puffs per cylinder).

 

I got another shot of gear oil in each cylinder, plugs in, connected wires and tried it.  It seemed to fire for a one or two explosions like it was going to catch, but then went back to the turning over with nothing happening.  

 

Headed out of town for vacation...further north to a land of more Subarus.  I'll hit a salvage yard and look for an ignition coil pack and maybe a fuel pump.



#86 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 9,089 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 04 July 2014 - 02:37 PM

That's just way too low. Timing is off or the valves aren't seating properly.

#87 upnorthguy

upnorthguy

    New User

  • Members
  • 268 posts
  • Northern Virginia

Posted 04 July 2014 - 08:14 PM

I redid the timing belt again for the third time.  I don't know any reason that the valve seating would have changed since it last ran before I removed the engine for resealing.

 

I got a new DMM today and checked voltage incoming to the coil pack: 11.96 V.  When cranking the incoming voltage for the coil pack is about 9.75V.  

 

I checked resistance across the coil pack.  Per FSM, it says primary resistance should be 0.69 ohms +/- 10%. I was getting around 1.3 ohms (both between pins 1 and 2 and 2 and 3).  Secondary resistance was OK (spec is 21.0 kohms +/- 15%).



#88 upnorthguy

upnorthguy

    New User

  • Members
  • 268 posts
  • Northern Virginia

Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:20 PM

Success on starting the engine tonight.  I can't understand how something like this happened, but...

 

Fairtax's comment about how it must be the timing off or the valve seats (near zero likelihood) made me think that I should check the cam gears to see how they were reinstalled.  I couldn't recall if there was a key or what to line it them with the cam shafts.

 

I turned the timing belt/gears so that all marks were lined up.  Then I removed the left cam gear, and confirmed that there is a nub on the back that matches to a notch in the cam shaft.  All is good on that side.

Then I removed the right cam gear and saw the nub, but then realized that the nub was not lined up with the notch in the cam shaft.  I have no idea how I could do that and tight the gear down. I do recall seeing that the cam gear on that side had a slight wobble to it- just enough to make me wonder if it was there previously (I had never paid attention to it before, so I couldn't be sure).

 

I then reinstalled the right cam gear and lined up the nub with the notch and, of course, the timing mark was not at the top, which explains why I was getting such wacky low compression readings on those two cylinders.  Timing belt back in place, turn the key and vroom....lots of smoke from the gear oil in the cylinders.  Quite a nice smoke show.  The check engine light was on so I checked the codes and had a pile (P0201, 302, 303...plus a few more).  Looks like those are all misfire and injector codes.  I cleared them and they have not reappeared.  I need to button up a few things but I should be test driving tomorrow.

 

I have expanded my supply of spare parts as I acquired two salvage ignition coil packs and fuel pumps last week.  

 

Thanks for all the suggestions along the way.  



#89 Fairtax4me

Fairtax4me

    Su bah roo'n

  • Gold Subscribers
  • 9,089 posts
  • Charlottesburg, VA

Posted 18 July 2014 - 05:59 PM

I haven't heard of anyone doing that before. This reinforces the point to pay close attention to details when disassembling and reassembling something.

Glad to hear its running!





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users